Did Elizabeth Warren illegally practice law in Massachsuetts?

He didn't dig very deep. (0.00 / 0)

While I have not checked every Harvard Law faculty member, several high profile professors who provide or have provided private legal services from their Harvard offices are licensed to practice law in Massachusetts, including Alan Dershowitz, Charles Fried, and Laurence Tribe.

Warren's husband Bruce Mann isn't listed.  Neither is Lawrence Lessig, Charles Ogletree, or Lani Guinier.  Wikipedia has a list of notable Harvard Law professors:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 13:09:51 PM UTC

To name a few (0.00 / 0)

Harvard profs Mass licensed?

William P. Alford: no
Lucian Bebchuk: no
Yochai Benkler:  active license since 1995
Robert C. Clark: active license since 1972
Alan Dershowitz: active license since 1968
Noah Feldman: no
Charles Fried: active license since 1966
Lawrence Lessig: no
Laurence Tribe: active license since 1978
Elizabeth Warren: no
Jonathan Zittrain: active license since 2001

With rather random sampling, most, not all appear to be licensed in Massachusetts.

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas

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by: gary @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 13:26:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The wikipedia list isn't that large. (0.00 / 0)

We can do this if we put our collective minds to it.  Crowdsource!

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 13:29:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Here's the complete list of the wikipedia notables. (0.00 / 0)

William P. Alford	No
Lucian Bebchuk	No
Yochai Benkler	Active since 1995
Robert C. Clark	Active since 1972
Alan Dershowitz	Active since 1968
Noah Feldman	No
Roger Fisher	deceased
William W. Fisher	Active since 2001
Charles Fried	Active since 1966
Gerald Frug	No
Mary Ann Glendon	Retired
Jack Goldsmith	No
Lani Guinier	No
Morton Horwitz	Retired
Duncan Kennedy	No
Randall Kennedy	No
Michael Klarman	No
Lawrence Lessig	No
Kenneth W. Mack	No
John F. Manning	No
Daniel Meltzer	Active since 1983
Frank Michelman	Active since 1967
Martha Minow	Active since 1981
Charles Nesson	Active since 1971
Charles Ogletree	No
John Palfrey	Inactive
Mark J. Roe	No
Lewis Sargentich	No
Robert Sitkoff	No
Jeannie Suk	No
Cass Sunstein	No
Laurence Tribe	Active since 1978
Mark Tushnet	No
Roberto Unger	No
Adrian Vermeule	No
Elizabeth Warren	No
Steven M. Wise	Active since 1977
Jonathan Zittrain	Active since 2001

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 13:48:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Correction (0.00 / 0)

Poor use of the word 'most'.  

It appears that more Harvard professors have a Mass license than those who don't.  What is missing however is a compilation of those professor lawyers who actually practice law.

Do you suppose she's licensed to practice in any state?

New Jersey shows she resigned

Texas license is inactive

No record in DC.

Here's a handy link to all state lawyer licensing.  Note the first sentence at the link:

Every U.S. lawyer is licensed to practice in some state, but very few lawyers are licensed to practice in every state.

Well, maybe not "every" lawyer.  

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas

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by: gary @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 13:54:21 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Law License or lack thereof (4.50 / 2)

Before everyone jumps up and down on this as an issue there are a few facts that we need yet.  First, Warren did not and does not need a Massachusetts Bar card to be admitted to or practice in the Federal Courts.  They are a different system and, as such, just need you to be admitted somewhere in the country.  Second, did Warren first chair any of these cases, or did she just provide research support from the back bench?  Third, did she appear anywhere in Massachusetts?  (I cannot use the trial court information service to search for attorney's appearances, or I would be able to tell you about Superior Court.)

If you really want to see her law record and what her cases were, go to New Jersey and pull them there.  Chances are pretty high that she never handled a case here in the Commonwealth's courts.  Or at least not directly, she probably consulted on several, but didn't enter an appearance.  A check through the Social Law Library does not show her appearance on any of the listed opinions.

So, in the end, Elizabeth Warren is more of an activist than a lawyer.  Don't worry where she is not admitted to practice, worry more that she is a theorist who doesn't really practice her own theories.  It is easy to be "gutsy" when someone else pays the price.

Frank Kautz

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by: Frank_Kautz @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 13:50:20 PM UTC

I was wondering (0.00 / 0)

about exactly that which you mention....that she probably didn't appear in a MA court and only did consultative work.
Thanks for the info.


"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

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by: ElectricStrawberry @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 13:58:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

And checking on Brown, he's listed as inactive. (0.00 / 0)

Attorneys choosing "Inactive", "Retired", "Clerk" , "Judicial" or "Foreign Legal Consultant" status are not allowed to practice law within the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. They will not be issued bar cards.

Does the lawyering he does for the military not count as being within the Commonwealth?

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 14:08:39 PM UTC

JAG (0.00 / 0)

JAG is actually an exception and can rep clients in all states even if not licensed in a particular state.  

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas

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by: gary @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 14:15:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The military (5.00 / 3)

and its courts are outside the jurisdiction of any state.

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

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by: ElectricStrawberry @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 15:15:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The case against her appears to be crumbling in the comments section. (0.00 / 0)

http://legalinsurrection.com/2...

COLD WATER ALERT: I actually don't think Warren is in violation of any Mass. statute or ethics rule (at least based on the the facts presented).

The main flaw in Prof. Jacobson's argument is the premise that Lizzy maintained an office in Mass. "for the practice of law." It appears she has an office at Harvard that she "maintains" for the primary purpose of being a law professor there. As far as I can see, she doesn't maintain a law office as such, i.e., an office with a shingle that says, "Elizabeth Warren, Attorney at Law (Nos Falamos Cherokee)." Not only does she not maintain such an office, she doesn't have a listing in the Mass. Lawyer's Diary, in Martindale-Hubbell (for Mass.) or in the Yellow Pages (that I could find). There also doesn't appear (from the OP) that she has law office letterhead that identifies her as a Massachusetts lawyer. In the absence of any of those things, she doesn't appear to have held herself out either as someone who can represent Bay State residents who have legal problems or people in other states who need representation before a court or agency in Massachusetts.

There is more. That's only the first 2 paragraphs.

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 15:01:02 PM UTC

Pro hac (0.00 / 0)

RE: the possibility that she practiced pro hac (I presume the suggestion is that she was pro hac before the Supreme court in the Travelers matter):  there is no Pro Hac motion on the docket of Travelers case.

Note that when a Pro Hac motion is argued it appears on the docket.  Example here.


Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas

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by: gary @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 20:15:50 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Real Problem is the 'Of Counsel" Relationship (0.00 / 0)

As someone who has worked with a lot of lawyers in his career, let me take a shot at sorting out what are the issues here from the fluff.

First, I don't see the point about practicing law from her office that Patrick notes above as an issue for Warren either.  She could always contend that she was doing work out of state and hence not subject to Massachusetts regulations.

Second, being a professor without a law license is not an issue.  As noted above, a majority of Harvard Law Faculty don't have a law license either (which lends credence to the adage, that those that can't do, teach).  

The real problem is being listed as counsel on the Traveler's brief without a valid law license.  To have an "Of Counsel" relationship, one needs to be licensed to practiced in at least one of the states where the matter is filed, the state where the law firm is located or the attorney's home state.  Requirements vary by state.  In Ms. Warren's case, it appears that she was not licensed to practice in any state when the brief was filed.  This is a big problem for her and, for that matter, for Simpson Thatcher.  

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by: yankeepundit @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 15:54:59 PM UTC

Travelers was federal right? (0.00 / 0)

As Frank_Kautz noted,

First, Warren did not and does not need a Massachusetts Bar card to be admitted to or practice in the Federal Courts.  They are a different system and, as such, just need you to be admitted somewhere in the country.

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 15:57:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I assumed (0.00 / 0)

shw was licensed SOMEWHERE.....but if she was not licensed anywhere at the time....THEN what?

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

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by: ElectricStrawberry @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 16:17:12 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The LI post says she had admittance to the Supreme Court. (0.00 / 0)

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 16:18:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

To be admitted (0.00 / 0)

To be admitted to practice before the Supreme court, you must affirmatively state that you are in good standing as an attorney in a particular state.

Here's the docket for the Travelers case.  Note that Warren's name is noticeably absent. Yet, her name appears on the Petitioner's Brief submitted on behalf of Travelers.

Meanwhile, back in Texas, the Bar record for Warren states inactive and "Statutory Profile Last Certified On: 03/02/2006" and that she was admitted to practice before the Supreme Court.

Confusing.  Ms. Warren should produce her Application to easily address this issue.

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas

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by: gary @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 17:29:33 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

But then NJ. (0.00 / 0)

She only recently resigned that.

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 18:14:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

....but she (0.00 / 0)

admits that she went inactive in NJ "a long time ago"...meaning she hasn't had a NJ license in "a long time"

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

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by: ElectricStrawberry @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 21:41:17 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Apparently inactive status doesn't matter. (0.00 / 0)

According to Larry Tribe in the new link I posted from Mass Lawyers Weekly.

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 23:40:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Couldn't (0.00 / 0)

care less about the opinions of lawyers.  Primary sources are key and the primary source is this rule from the Supreme Court:

1. To qualify for admission to the Bar of this Court, an applicant must have been admitted to practice in the highest court of a State, Commonwealth, Territory or Possession, or the District of Columbia for a period of at least three years immediately before the date of application;

One must be "admitted" for 3 years prior to application.  I presume she had a licensed somewhere for those 3 years prior......and that "a very very Lon time" is in her world is "3 years ago"

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

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by: ElectricStrawberry @ Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 01:51:43 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Jacobson somewhat held Tribe up as an authority. (0.00 / 0)

Look at Tribe!  He has a MA law license!  Live by argument from authority, die by argument from authority.

Then there is also the curious bit that Jacobson is unwilling to file a formal complaint.  If he believes in his case why wouldn't he follow through with an actual complaint?

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 23:13:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Without (0.00 / 0)

anything to the contrary, I'm left presuming that she was licensed in NJ for the 3 years prior to admission to the Supreme Court Bar.  Otherwise, the truth would be that she was not licensed in NJ for teh 3 years prior to admission to the Supreme Bar....and the Supreme Bar never bothered to check.

...and that, in her world, "...a very very long time ago" is 3 years.

We know she wasn't licensed in MA or TX....I know nothing of her NJ license other than it going inactive a "very very long time ago."

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

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by: ElectricStrawberry @ Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 16:25:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

This is just plain WRONG (0.00 / 0)

This Supremacy Clause issue is a red herring.

In order to be admitted to practice before SCOTUS, you must prove you are a member in good standing in one state or another (unless you are seeking admission pro haec vice).

It's right there in the instructions for the application for admission.

To qualify for admission to the Bar of this Court, an applicant must have been admitted to practice in the highest court of a State, Commonwealth, Territory or Possession, or the District of Columbia for a period of at least three years immediately before the date of application; must not have been the subject
of any adverse disciplinary action pronounced or in effect during that 3-year period; and must appear to the Court to be of good moral and professional character.

Assuming (giving her the benefit of the doubt) that she followed the typical admission process, she would have shown that she was a member in good standing in either Texas or New Jersey (wherever she was when first admitted). The question is, then, once she is admitted to SCOTUS, when her status CHANGES (i.e., she moves to another state and gives up her membership in the original state), does she have a responsibility to maintain Good Standing in some other state?

This question is not answered in the SCOTUS Rules, but the standard rules of statutory construction would suggest that she does.

As for the location of her office, this is another canard. If she is representing a client from Connecticut (Travelers home), when she is on the telephone from her office is Cambridge, she is practicing law IN MASSACHUSETTS.

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by: wavey @ Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 12:30:41 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The REAL issue is where she got all her wealth from... (0.00 / 0)

Warren is worth over $10mm. Where did all that money come from? It's not from being a professor...
It came from representing the corporate interests she so profusely claims to detest...

Perhaps the fact that we have seen millions voting themselves into complete dependence on a tyrant has made our generation understand that to choose one's government is not necessarily to secure freedom.  

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by: Hayek @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 16:08:28 PM UTC

You base this on what? (0.00 / 0)

She made a good salary as a professor and scored a few book deals.  Why wouldn't that account for it?  Travelers seems to be the only outside legal work she did which amounted to $200k over a 2 year period.

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 16:39:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Peanuts! (0.00 / 0)

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by: wavey @ Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 12:32:10 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

A relevant comment from over at BMG. (0.00 / 0)

http://bluemassgroup.com/2012/...

Warren's name was on a brief in a couple of cases in the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals. Again not as counsel of record. Her role in the case (the last name on the brief) may not have required her to be admitted to that court, or she may have been admitted pro hac vice - just for that case. It happens all the time when out-of-state lawyers are involved in cases. I've done it dozens of times. The Fifth Circuit requires attorneys admitted to its bar to retain membership in some state's bar, but Warren was admitted at all relevant times in New Jersey (she apparently resigned from that bar two weeks ago for some reason), and in the federal district court in New Jersey as well as the U.S. Supreme Court.

There is more than just that paragraph.

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 16:37:08 PM UTC

Mass Lawyer's Weekly (0.00 / 0)

http://masslawyersweekly.com/t...

"The fact that Charles and I happen to be licensed in Massachusetts is immaterial. That wasn't the reason I could practice in the U.S. Supreme Court. I was an inactive member of the California bar as well, which was all that was needed," Tribe says.

Tribe adds that Warren fully met all of the Supreme Court's requirements for filing briefs and petitions with that court.

"This was not and could not be a violation of any Massachusetts rule," Tribe says. "In fact, any state rule that interfered with a federal filing would be null and void under the Supremacy Clause of Article VI of the United States Constitution. Elizabeth complied with all applicable federal rules."

Michael Fredrickson, general counsel for the BBO, says he does not believe a law professor would be considered to have "a continuous presence" or "an office practicing law."

"If they actually practice here - as some part-time law professors at some of the smaller schools do - they might," Fredrickson says. "But being a professor at one of the large schools, their office is a professor's office, and the fact that they tend to dabble in the practice of law doesn't run afoul of our rule. I don't think Elizabeth Warren would fall within that, such that she would have to register here."

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Mon Sep 24, 2012 at 23:34:50 PM UTC

Rushed (0.00 / 0)

It's darn unprofessional of Mass Law Weekly and the BBO to reach such a conclusion.  

Mass Law Weekly simply reiterated Tribe's claim without challenging it. The BBO General Counsel's appears to have reached a conclusion to a supposed rule violation without a BBO complaint having been filed.

"I don't think Elizabeth Warren would fall within that, such that she would have to register here."

 

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas

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by: gary @ Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 12:45:20 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Jacobson is unwilling to file a formal complaint. (0.00 / 0)

What else would you like them to say?  If you agree with Jacobson then file a complaint on his behalf.

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"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)

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by: Patrick @ Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 23:14:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

He has no standing to. (0.00 / 0)

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by: wavey @ Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 12:35:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not sure that's true (0.00 / 0)

I think he may have standing to complain as do I.

As a member of the bar, I have the right and obligation, as any Mass lawyer, to file a complaint with the BBO against a practicing attorney in Massachusetts if I were privy to an ethics violation.

However, she's not a Massachusetts practicing attorney.  She's not a member of the Mass Bar. I think then, that the BBO has no power to sanction her.

However, her practice may be a violation of running an unlicensed law practice Chapter 46A.  The Court, Attorney General or District Attorney (in Cambridge I suppose) has the enforcement authority under Ch 46B.  

So, in theory, I along with 2 other lawyers could petition the court for equitable relief or could visit the AG or the DA with a complaint:  As in, "Justice please make Ms Warren stop practicing law in this state without a license."  The problem with that complaint is that she's already stopped.  The relief of chapter 46B is "equitable". It's not a criminal statute and I can't see damages so there's no civil remedy.

In short, the value of a complaint appears worthless but I invite alternative views.

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas

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by: gary @ Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 13:24:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You do, Gary (0.00 / 0)

because you're a member of the Mass bar. In fact, you have an OBLIGATION to report it (well, not now, it's already known).

But Jacobsen is not a member of the Mass bar.

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by: wavey @ Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 18:18:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree (0.00 / 0)

Mass. R. Prof. C. 8.3(a) provides:

A lawyer having knowledge that another lawyer has committed a violation of the Rules of Professional Conduct that raises a substantial question as to that lawyer's honesty, trustworthiness or fitness as a lawyer in other respects, shall inform the Bar Counsel's office of the Board of Bar Overseers.

According to this rule, then, a lawyer need not report himself or herself but must only report another lawyer who has committed a violation within the rule's definition. The lawyer's duty does extend, however, to reporting the misconduct of another lawyer in the reporting lawyer's firm.

The lawyer whose conduct is at issue need not be on active status or in good standing with the bar. See Arthur F. Greenbaum, The Attorney's Duty to Report Professional Misconduct: A Roadmap for Reform, 16 Geo. J. Legal Ethics 259, 294-295 n. 198 (Winter 2003) (hereinafter cited as "Greenbaum"). According to Greenbaum, extending the rule to suspended lawyers or lawyers on inactive status "makes sense because the lawyer on suspended or inactive status remains under the jurisdiction of the disciplinary authority, and the conduct in question might warrant discipline." In addition, the rule probably includes disbarred lawyers, at least in jurisdictions that, like Massachusetts, permit reinstatement after disbarment, because the misconduct would be relevant in a reinstatement proceeding. Id.

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas

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by: gary @ Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 18:41:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Do it Gary! Do it! I always found the best way to annoy someone is to tell on them! (0.00 / 0)

I rat people out all the time Gary it's fun!  I'll go down there with you if you want.

Molon Labe

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by: Republican Ram Rod Radio @ Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 15:26:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

However (0.00 / 0)

The fact that she is not now, nor has she ever been a member of the Mass Bar, complicates the matter and makes sanctions quite difficult.

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas

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by: gary @ Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 18:43:55 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Criminal penalties (0.00 / 0)

http://www.malegislature.gov/L...

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by: wavey @ Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 11:57:46 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

The name on the brief is not the only element (0.00 / 0)

Her name on the brief is one issue.

The point is that her name on the brief is evidence that she was engaged in the practice of law (i.e., she contributed to the work product of the client for a fee) from her office in Cambridge.

Ordinarily, people do not put their names on SCOTUS briefs unless they did some work on it.  

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by: wavey @ Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 12:34:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

"Actually practice" (0.00 / 0)

This is indeed what one does when one is retained and paid by a client to perform legal services.

Frederickson was answering a more general question about law professors.

The teaching of a law class does not constitute the practice of law.

Writing scholarly articles does not constitute the practice of law.

Writing a brief (or contributing to it) that is filed in a court IS the practice of law (whether or not you are listed on the brief).

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by: wavey @ Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 12:38:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Elizabeth Warren didn't practice law illegally... (5.00 / 7)

She just told other people, including clients, that she was a lawyer so she could meet other people like her, and maybe get invited to lunch.  She never got invited to lunch so she stopped telling people she was a lawyer....    

We are headed for a 'Fiscal Cliff' and the country just elected a dope whose motto is 'Forward'.  

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by: Vote3rdpartynow @ Tue Sep 25, 2012 at 09:36:40 AM UTC

Three 5's, I will take that all day long...... (0.00 / 0)

We are headed for a 'Fiscal Cliff' and the country just elected a dope whose motto is 'Forward'.  

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by: Vote3rdpartynow @ Wed Sep 26, 2012 at 14:36:15 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Look at all my 5's. 6 of them now! Its like Christmas around here..... (5.00 / 1)

V3PN: "I want to thank all the little people for this great honor'.....

We are headed for a 'Fiscal Cliff' and the country just elected a dope whose motto is 'Forward'.  

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by: Vote3rdpartynow @ Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 16:52:32 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

ho ho ho what a nice comment V3PN! (0.00 / 0)

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by: Santa 87 @ Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 17:45:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Holy shit man! shit! It's Santa! (0.00 / 0)

Hey EaBo!  EaBo! Look!  It's a Christmas miracle!  

Molon Labe

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by: Republican Ram Rod Radio @ Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 17:51:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Now clear beyond a doubt (0.00 / 0)

Here's the rule:  Rule 5.5 Unauthorized Practice of Law; Multijurisdictional Practice Of Law

(a) A lawyer shall not practice law in a jurisdiction in violation of the regulation of the legal profession in that jurisdiction, or assist another in doing so.

Now, it's clear that she was practicing in Massachusetts and filed an appearance.  Legalinsurrection.com

As you can see from the above link, even her supporters on this issue have changed their mind.

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas

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by: gary @ Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 16:49:29 PM UTC

..."in a (0.00 / 0)

federal court" seems to be inportant here.  Do Massachusetts Bar rules apply to federal courts?

I'm still left presuming that she was actively licensed in NJ when she was granted admission to the federal court.....anything to the contrary?

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

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by: ElectricStrawberry @ Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 17:00:47 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Absolutely (0.00 / 0)

She was representing a Massachusetts client, in Massachusetts on matters of Massachusetts law from an office located in Massachusetts.  legalinsurrection

Even her supporters have yet to make the claim that it's somehow ok for a non-massachusetts lawyer to somehow work on the Mass case in the federal court.  See here

The ethical rule is this:

Rule 5.5 (b) A lawyer who is not admitted to practice in this jurisdiction shall not:

(1) except as authorized by these Rules or other law, establish an office or other systematic and continuous presence in this jurisdiction for the practice of law; or

(2) hold out to the public or otherwise represent that the lawyer is admitted to practice law in this jurisdiction.

Sites other than legalinsurrection are now rightfully picking up on this topic.  

powerlineblog

ordinary gentlemen

ethicsalarms

Question whether we really want anonther unethical lawyer as a U.S. Senator.

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas

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by: gary @ Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 17:16:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

If she (0.00 / 0)

was representing the client in a STATE court, you'd have me, but in a federal court....you don't have me one bit.  The federal court has its own rules as to who is admitted and if all it takes is a license in the highest court of "ANY" state, as the Supremes put it, and she was licensed in NJ at the time....you don't have me.  IT wouldn't matter where the client was from or what law was at stake from which state.....if she was admitted to the federal court because of a NJ license, she was admitted to the federal court.
If she's claiming an office in Massachusetts to represent someone in a federal court....still seems to have wiggle-room, as she's not practicing law to be admitted in the jurisdiction of Massachusetts.  If she's practicing law to be admitted in federal courts....see what I'm getting at?  It's a big fat "depends on what the definition of 'is' is"....

Now, to the rule you're quoting....the term "except as authorized by these Rules or other law" is very suspect to me.

Don't get me wrong....I'd LOVE for there to be a slam-dunk case against her.  I'd LOVE for her to get busted on this.  But there seems to be a helluva lot of wiggle-room.

Does anyone have dates of her licensure in New Jersey?????

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

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by: ElectricStrawberry @ Thu Sep 27, 2012 at 18:21:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

The practice of law (0.00 / 0)

That the representation was in a federal court is a red herring.

If someone walked into a Cambridge lawyer's office and the Cambridge located but NJ licensed lawyer began to give legal advice about a representation in Federal court, she'd be guilty of practicing law without a license in the state of massachusetts, city of cambridge.

Example:  a bankruptcy (i.e. federal law) attorney licensed in Mass can't practice outside of Mass, even in the area of Bankruptcy.

The representation in the Federal court raises the question of whether her Appearance was valid or not.  My guess is that the Appearance is probably good; she possibly filed an appropriate Appearance based on her NJ or Texas license.  But, the fact remains, she was "practicing law" in the state of Massachusetts with no Mass license.  

At this point, it seems quite clear that she was committing malpractice with that particular representation.

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas

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by: gary @ Fri Sep 28, 2012 at 01:40:12 AM UTC

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