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"A Nation Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand"

by: The Angelic One

Fri Nov 16, 2012 at 00:15:39 AM EST


Abraham Lincoln's famous "Nation Divided" quote was from his speech on America as it slouched towards Civil War.

Some people feel that sentiment is applicable to the nation today. A spontaneous movement among 23 states (as of this writing) to secede from the union reflects a profound disconnect between the states & the federal government.

Columnist Kyle Becker says the "divided states of America" hasn't been this polarized in 70 years. Columnist Ben Shapiro offers this intriguing insightover how the differences between Red & Blue states will play itself out:

Red states are governed very differently from blue states. Of the 22 right-to-work states, which have provided 72% of the jobs under the weak Obama recovery, only Iowa (divided), Nebraska (nonpartisan unicameral legislature) and Nevada (Democrat-controlled legislature) are not solid red. Meanwhile, the bluest states - states like Michigan and California and Illinois - are totally bankrupt.

What we are seeing is a complete divide throughout the country on the state level. We only get to elect one president. But on a state-by-state basis, it's clear that the American people have two very different ideas of which way they want this country to head.

If the blue states hold true to form and the red states continue to grow, it will not be long before the red states are largely subsidizing the blue states. And when that happens, look for the bond that holds the states together to fray. If California is America's Greece, Texas will be America's Germany. And if the European Union cannot hold, don't be surprised to see internal pressures in the United States, too, as more and more Americans become frustrated by a distant yet intrusive federal government they feel they cannot control.

Muslims4Liberty's Darvi Barker is one of the more articulate purveyors of secession & has pointed out the obvious:

Many believe that time is now, but are terrified to speak openly of secession because of the legacy left by Abraham Lincoln. But what if we weren't talking about a confederacy of states attempting to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with the Union. What if instead we speak of abolition of the Federal government all together. An amicable divorce between states with irreconcilable differences. Perhaps a long and difficult legal battle over custody and assets, but no bloodshed, no civil war. What if there was no Union to fight?
The Angelic One :: "A Nation Divided Against Itself Cannot Stand"
Barker's observations will sound seductive to a variety of political groups across the political spectrum:

So, If the results of the laboratory experiment aren't painfully obvious, let's shake the beakers. Face it, the ideological differences between liberals and conservatives are irreconcilable, and it's unconscionable to subject one to the bad ideas of the other against their will. Public debate is getting us nowhere because both sides are buried in their own propaganda. We need to actually see the tangible results of unfettered liberalism and unfettered conservatism. So, next presidential election, let both candidates win. Let (Mitt) Romney run the red states and (Barack) Obama run the blue states. Split the congress. And if Ron Paul wins any states, let him run them too. There's more than enough "representatives" to go around. Let the liberals try to create their socialist welfare utopia without the republican dime and see what happens. Let the republicans build their corporatist warfare empire without the democrat dime and see where it gets them.

Oh, but I think we can do better. Let's let all the secessionists have their states too. Let the Libertarians run an Independent Alaska. Let the Green Party run the Vermont Republic. The Lone Star State never really wanted to be part of the Union anyway. But let's get really crazy. Give Hawaii their Kingdom back. Let the Lokota Nation have their independence. Let the Black Panthers have a piece of Louisiana for their Republic of New Afrika. Don't forget the Conch Republic in Key West. And while we're at it, let's let the Voluntaryists have New Hampshire. After all, what's an experiment without a control group?

What's the worst that could happen? After four years, we'll take score. See how everyone did. Then we'll know. We can finally stop arguing hypotheticals and theory and start working with some real observable consequences.

Yet once passions are stirred to a boiling point, anything can happen. But the pro-secession leaders should calm down & ponder some of the ramifications of what they want as forcefully enunciated by columnist Bob Cesca:

Most of the red states - now the hypothetical "New Confederacy" - had heretofore taken more federal aid than they paid back in federal taxes. South Carolina, for example, takes $1.35 in federal money for every dollar it pays in federal taxes. Louisiana takes $1.78 for every dollar it pays into the system. Talk about moochers and freeloaders. By the way, this money is redistributed from other states, including the blue states with their abortion-on-demand and evil healthcare mandate. After secession, that gravy train would cease to exist. Farmers, corporations, small businesses, universities and law enforcement would crumble without federal aid - grants, contracts, matching funds, tax breaks, etc.

If the reality of losing federal money wasn't enough to convince the New Confederacy to stop behaving like petulant, tantrum-throwing children, then an array of more hard-core sanctions would begin. It's likely the power grid, pipelines, shipping lanes and, yes, satellite and internet communications would be summarily blocked by the U.S. government. The confederacy would be totally cut off from the rest of the world. Meanwhile, without federal regulations on food safety, clean water, clean air, and without the CDC, rampant disease would spread across the confederacy. How would northern medical equipment and pharmaceuticals reach the seceded states? Inflation, especially on medicine, would skyrocket as demand for dwindling supplies increased. Black-marketeers would spring up in every town.

The solidly blue areas inside the seceded states - Austin, for instance - would be the Texas equivalent to West Berlin in the heart of East Germany. We'd have to airlift supplies to those areas and hope that hoards of desperate and well-armed suburban and rural warlords didn't swoop in try to swipe the supplies. Needless to say, there would be a large scale humanitarian crisis.

At the governmental level of the New Confederacy, presuming there's something holding all the states together, leaders would quickly learn the hard lessons of both the Articles of Confederation and the CSA: it's nearly impossible to govern and do business as a confederacy, especially in a 2012 world. There wouldn't be a standard national currency. There wouldn't be national trade agreements even though, on the bright side, nations like China, which has been known to do business with rogue nations like Iran, might continue to ship cheap crap to Walmart and other stores inside this loose conglomeration of nations.

Instead of one large national economy, there would be individual state-level economies - each of them too weak to compete in the global marketplace. How would the New Confederacy generate revenue without a central system of taxation? If it came down to a fighting war against the U.S., how would the central government raise and finance a military?

Welcome, New Confederacy, to third world status!

But it gets worse. The impossible reality of a successful confederacy would be further exacerbated by the secession precedent. States would end up splitting into smaller and smaller pieces with parts of states seceded from other parts - subdividing and subdividing until the confederacy vaporized or was reunified into a more traditional federalist system.

Again, this isn't speculative. This is tested reality. The Confederate States of America ended up with a strong central government because it quickly learned that it couldn't fight a war and manage its economy without one. Years earlier, the disastrous Articles of Confederation were dismantled and replaced with the U.S. Constitution with a strong central government and a powerful chief executive as its centerpiece.

Amen, Brother Cesca. I'm not sure how today's secessionist movement will play itself out but ultimately I hope it fizzles & fails. I oppose it for the simple fact that if successful it will end America as we know it - as a global power, as a federalist system, & as a living embodiment that people can indeed govern themselves. It's the kind of wet dream nurtured by our nation's enemies; it shouldn't merit a thought from ANY patriotic American who loves his/her country.

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The solution to our polarization is not secession (5.00 / 1)
It's Federalism.

President Obama, the Democrats and the Left are often accused of wanting to increase the size and scope of the Federal Government relative to the size and scope of the states. It's true, but in reality, they are merely following a trend in Washington of the last century. More Federal power, and less state power. It makes our national politics more contentious, and makes us prone to more and more deadlocks and the need for compromise, something not always immediately obtainable.

What we should do is push for rights, powers, and money to go back to state governments. That probably won't be a good outcome for some states, like Illinois and California, where things are horribly wrong in state government. But at least more decisions and more consequences will be their own. There is no need for Iowa and New Jersey to have to have the same standards and policies when it comes to Gay Marriage, abortion, tax rates, welfare eligibility levels, health care systems, educational standards, you name it. Let's come together in Washington to manage our common currency, manage true interstate commerce and infrastructure, and face the world with a united defense and beacon for liberty. But leave the rest to the people and the states. I think things would be a lot less intense in Washington, and in general, we'd be happier people. That's how the founders envisioned it.  

(R)- Outside 495


Great stuff, MM! (5.00 / 1)
Merrimack Man -

Thanks for throwing some common sense into the lunacy of secession talk. The federal government is so involved with everything these days that I am not sure its possible to secede.

Yes! Federalism is a way to solve some of this. And we keep blaming the Democrats for doing this, but Republicans very often join in the big-government expansion.

The only thing I would add is tolerance. Diverse republics require that people are tolerant if they are to function properly. We need to accept different points of view, ignore things we don't agree with that don't affect us, and avoid winner-take-all politics.

On that last point, both sides always want to press their advantage to get everything their way. That's horrible, it increases polarization, and we were never like that before. For example, Democrats recently were unwise to try to force religious institutions to pay for birth control, or to try to extinguish religious cheers at football games. Republicans recently were unwise trying to export concealed carry licenses to states that don't have them or to cut off non-abortion funding at Planned Parenthood locations. All of these cases built on things a lot of people agreed with (in order: contraception coverage in private plans, no official prayer in school, state-level handgun licensing, and no federal funding of abortions), but took them way too far and pissed off the other side in a way that was totally unnecessary.

Stopping polarization is probably our top priority as it frustrates so much of what we need to get done. As my friends hear me say often, we must police our own side, not the other side (which won't listen to us). The country - and even this website - has many intolerant, polarizing Republicans. We must remind people that to have the polarization of The Civil War without a civil war shocks the senses and would cause Abraham Lincoln to implore us all to stop doing this.

As I say often, the Democrats are not our worst enemy. We are. We must be better. That is where the best opportunity is.


[ Parent ]
Great Observations, MerrimackMan (0.00 / 0)
The Founding Fathers had it right when they designed our country. If properly done, federalism provides the kind of checks & balances we need to have between Washington & the states. We should apply it in Massachusetts too!

[ Parent ]
This Is Silly (0.00 / 0)
The basis of this argument is that secession is unnecessary to heal the national divide because ... if liberals would just give up and let our side win then all would be well.

Liberals could just as well advance a parallel argument that secession is unnecessary because we can all get along just fine ... if we appoint Obama as Big Brother For Life and that we cede all of our decision making processes to the chancery of czars.  


[ Parent ]
That's Not My Argument (0.00 / 0)
I don't know if you're responding to MerrimackMan or me but the "let's all get along" argument is not what I'm talking about. There's no doubt that we & our rivals will fight to persuade the public to embrace either our practical ideology or their practical ideology. But secession would be a disaster for the reasons stated earlier in another thread.

[ Parent ]
Wish List (0.00 / 0)
I guess I was responding to the overall sight of everyone agreeing that a push towards federalism was somehow a solution to the national divide.
The debate about federalism has been the center of the national divide for over 200 years, hasn't it?
While it would certainly be nice if the federal government would voluntarily shrink itself and hand over all of the power that it has been usurped for generations, I doubt anyone seriously expects to see this happen. So that's not a practical solution is it?
But I do agree that secession talk is silly but mostly because such a thing would never be allowed to happen.
Are we kidding ourselves or what? Like we wouldn't quickly see an army of drones on patrol over the streets of Austin if such an idea gained any traction.

[ Parent ]
That's A Scary Thought (0.00 / 0)
And it raises the question as to whether or not Americans would accept the idea of allowing certain freedoms to be sacrificed in exchange for certain comforts promised in a social democracy (similar to the European model).

[ Parent ]
Seccessionists are lunatic! I agree federalism is the answer! (0.00 / 0)


"Work is the essence of Man."

I Agree, Karl Marx (0.00 / 0)
Secession will only ruin our country. Better to work out our problems than to give up. We're better than that.  

[ Parent ]
I could only get to the first two excerpts... (0.00 / 2)
...when all the inaccuracies and half-truths made you head spin...

First off, the fact that 83,000 people claiming to live in Texas, out of a population of 26.4 million people (.003 %) is no where near a "movement" and only reflects that we have tiny specks of fringe people that will believe anything.  And for you to use this as an example of a divided nation demonstrates that not only are you a poster child for voter fraud, but you don't have the intellectual heft to make an honest argument.    

Secondly, the domestic energy-boom that has occurred under the Obama Presidency is the primary driver of the job growth in Texas and many of the central and northern plain states--and if they were union states, the jobs would have still have been created.  Right to work had nothing to do with the job growth.  

As for the suggestion that "Red state" American growth will somehow subsidize "Blue state" welfare programs...that pesky thing called facts (from The American Conservative no less) gets in the way of that BS.  The crazy irony is red states are parasites living off the economies of blue states.  

Would you rather your child get educated in Mississippi or Massachusetts?


Reading Is Fundamental If One Seeks Wisdom, Grasshopper (0.00 / 0)
Hey, I thought you liberals were supposed to be the "tolerant" ones, the "inclusive" ones, the "broadminded" ones. I guess you, Festus, can't live up to the high standards set by the more sophisticated overlords of your tribe.

My post examined the broad arguments (from mainstream to extreme) made by some of the supporters & some of the detractors of secession. I presented their arguments & chose the anti-secession side at the end of the post - which you would've known had you bothered to finish reading it. Some of the columnists talked about different states with different issues & if you disagree with aspects of their arguments then take it up with them. While Texas was mentioned, it wasn't the dominant subject of the post. And as far as which states are subsidized by other states, I already raised that issue via Bob Cesca - a columnist for the Huffington Post - which (again) had you bothered to read the post in its ENTIRETY you would have seen some of your points had already been raised & discussed.

There was a time - in a galaxy far, far away - when you would bring a reasonable point of view into discussions. But I guess your continued exposure to the New Left has worn down your capacity to do such things any more. You're becoming more ideologically hateful, more rabidly partisan, & more intensely illogical like your fellow adherents of the New Left. I've seen their poison change people like Barney Frank from a happy-go-lucky guy to a bitter old man. I'd hate to see you lose your humanity as well so I & other members of Red Mass Group will now say a little prayer for you (cue swelling music): "Forgive Festus, O Lord; He knows not what he does. Give him the strength he needs to renounce the evil New Left, embrace the noble aims of politics, & upon that epiphany join the conservative movement. Amen."


[ Parent ]
Next time, explore the pros and cons of... (0.00 / 0)
...slavery.  Just the very act of presented arguments for and against secession exemplifies to absurd state of the conservative movement.  Your fret about my state of mind with I'm confronted with the absurd.  Yet you pray that I be struck by an epiphany and and embrace a debate about the absurd.  

The fact that you, in the end, reject the absurd is of shallow comfort compared to the fact that you gave it a sliver of legitimacy.  


[ Parent ]
We Here At RMG Will Continue To Pray For You (0.00 / 0)
Much anger in your response, Grasshopper. I fear you have allowed the dark side of The Force to have a total eclipse of your heart. But those of us here at Red Mass Group will continue to pray for you. We will ask Nature & Nature's God to intercede on your behalf so that your soul will free itself from the New Left poison that enslaves it. All you need to do is repeat after me ad infinitum the following chant provided to me by the Beatles: "Jai Guru Deva - Om."

[ Parent ]
"Much anger in your response" - The Angelic One (0.00 / 0)
It's true Festus, you have been pretty angry lately.    

Molon Labe

[ Parent ]
Pray For Him, RRRR (0.00 / 0)
Just pray for him.

[ Parent ]
Adverstise here for as low as $60 per week.








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