Patrick Kennedy Denied Communion in Catholic Diocese of Providence, RI

Loophole? (0.00 / 0)

He can go to a non-diocesan priest in RI, correct?
http://www.catholicdoors.com/f...

The Diocesan priest is under the supervision of the Diocesan Bishop. To the Bishop, he makes the vows of obedience and chastity. He does not make the vow of poverty, this meaning that he can own property or be involved in operating a business, over and above the ministry capacity in which he is called to serve. Usually these priests will only minister in their Diocese during their lifetime.

The non-Diocesan priests belong to a Religious Order such as the Franciscans, the Jesuits, the Dominicans, the Oblats, the Redemptorists, etc... They make the vows of obedience, chastity and poverty. They do not own anything. What they use, it belongs to the religious community. If they receive earnings for work performed, the cheque goes to the Religious Order that provides all of their daily needs. They answer to their superior who answers to the "Provincial" (the District authority).

Is this excommunication or just run of the mill denial of the sacrament to one who is without question unworthy to receive it?

What makes Tobin ultra-orthodox?  Does he flagellate himself in public or something?

Good decision.  About time the bishops started to actively police the flock.

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"It is true that I am of an older fashion; much that I love has been destroyed or sent into exile." - The Judgement of Dr. Johnson, Act III

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by: Patrick @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 08:54:12 AM CST

No (0.00 / 0)

No, my understanding is that a priest of a religious order would have to obey the diocesan bishop as the order operates within the territorial confines of the Diocese of Providence, RI.

Maybe I'm missing your humor but as far as Tobin being "ultra-orthodox" ...um, he isn't.  He's a straight down the middle theologian in full accord with the Holy See.  The crack about self-flagellation is a wee bit snarky and I would expect from a pro-abortion liberal.  Bishop Fabian Bruschewitz of Lincoln, Nebraska would probably make Tobin look like an ecclesiastical liberal.  I believe that good shepherd was one of the ones who threatened action against Kerry in 2004.

"Ultra-orthodox" would be someone belonging to a schismatic group such as the SSPX or a sede-vacantist.  Tobin doesn't qualify for either.  :)  

"Tomorrow will be better for as long as America keeps alive the ideals of freedom and a better life." - Walt Disney

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by: BNCordeiro @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 09:03:52 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm poking fun at the paper's use of ulta-orthodox. (0.00 / 0)

Whenever a conservative does something that a newspaper doesn't like they seem to get labeled as an ultra-orthodox this or an arch-conservative that with little reason to use those terms.

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"It is true that I am of an older fashion; much that I love has been destroyed or sent into exile." - The Judgement of Dr. Johnson, Act III

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by: Patrick @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 09:06:38 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Fair Enough (0.00 / 0)

Sometimes the parody eludes me but your point is well made.

"Tomorrow will be better for as long as America keeps alive the ideals of freedom and a better life." - Walt Disney

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by: BNCordeiro @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 09:21:44 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Excommunication. (0.00 / 0)

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"It is true that I am of an older fashion; much that I love has been destroyed or sent into exile." - The Judgement of Dr. Johnson, Act III

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by: Patrick @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 09:00:14 AM CST

Lets hope Marthas next (0.00 / 0)

Any "Roman Catholic" politician who would force their church's members to actually PAY for abortions and become unwitting accessories to it absolutely deserve this.

Imagine: Bishop Tobin, local priests, nuns, and pro-life Catholics like myself are all going to be forced to pay for abortions through our tax dollars because of people like Patrick Kennedy and Martha Croakley (should she get elected) mandating abortion become a taxpayer funded sacrament.

DONT MAKE US PAY FOR ABORTIONS

"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators." -PJ O'Rourke

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by: South Shore Republican @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 09:11:31 AM CST

If we do pay for abortions... (0.00 / 0)

does that make us all licit?  Would the Pope be justified in placing an interdict on the USA?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

A local interdict against a country was to it the equivalent of excommunication against an individual. It would cause all the churches to be closed, and almost all the sacraments not to be allowed (i.e. preventing marriage, confession, anointing of the sick, and the eucharist). Certain exceptions allow for baptism, anointing of the sick, and sacraments on Christian holidays.

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"It is true that I am of an older fashion; much that I love has been destroyed or sent into exile." - The Judgement of Dr. Johnson, Act III

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by: Patrick @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 09:20:39 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I think it would a more than the US (0.00 / 0)

I believe there are several places in the world where there are national healthcare systems where abortion is provided.

Regardless of of this specific issue is addressed in the healthcare bill, we already do pay for it elsewhere.  One of the things GW was removed funding for abortion services in other countries.  BHO reversed that decision immediately after taking office.  So even if we're not funding them directly here (which we are in MA), we are funding abortion abroad.

Follow me on twitter @garyrlake

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by: garyrlake @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 09:54:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

didn't this come up before? (0.00 / 0)

When Kerry was running for president?  Although not directed at any specific person.  I seem to recall a Boston TV station reporting a story that the church...although I cannot remember if it was a bishop or if it came from the Vatican...anyway, the general jist of the story was that any pol who actively supported abortion should not be permitted to receive? The story seemed to come and go very quickly.

Follow me on twitter @garyrlake

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by: garyrlake @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 09:49:33 AM CST

Yes. (0.00 / 0)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/ame...

Cardinal Arinze was asked if priests should deny communion to politicians who are unambiguously pro-abortion.

"Yes," he said, according to Reuters. "If the person should not receive it, then it should not be given. Objectively, the answer is there."

But...

US bishops have discretion in deciding who should receive communion, and several bishops, led by Archbishop Raymond Burke of St Louis, have warned they will not give Mr Kerry communion.

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"It is true that I am of an older fashion; much that I love has been destroyed or sent into exile." - The Judgement of Dr. Johnson, Act III

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by: Patrick @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 09:52:22 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I remember the story (5.00 / 2)

Because Jay Sevrin made a comment to the effect of

"Why is everyone shocked that the church has decided to practice Catholicism?"

Follow me on twitter @garyrlake

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by: garyrlake @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 09:57:43 AM CST

[ Parent ]

A simple solution... (2.00 / 2)

excommunicate Kennedy and every cafeteria Catholic and be gone with them. Same goes with those that believe Priest should marry-out.  In favor of capital punshinment-bygone, and so on.  

Imagine the impact on the Church is they just decreed anyone supporting abortion is excommunicated.  That would be the consistent and moral thing to do...so why not?

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by: Festus Garvey @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 10:54:54 AM CST

Pope Benedict XVI: The Church's position on abortion, capital punishment and politics (5.00 / 1)

A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate's permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate's stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.

Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

"Victory is Mine!" - Stewart Gilligan Griffin.

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by: Mike "DD4RP" Rossettie @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 11:32:50 AM CST

[ Parent ]

How convenient... (0.00 / 1)

I guess only some life is sacred, then?  

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by: eury13 @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 21:26:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

There is Festus again... (5.00 / 1)

...equating the importance of the Church's position on abortion to any other issue, down to a local zoning ordinance or a dispute about vestments.

Its not Festus, it is fundamentally more important than almost any other issue you state. We Catholics will be celebrating the Feast of the Immaculate Conception in a few short weeks... doesn't that tell you something?

"When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators." -PJ O'Rourke

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by: South Shore Republican @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 12:08:33 PM CST

[ Parent ]

festus to the rescue... (0.00 / 0)

no justice, no peace.

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by: benwetmore @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 13:43:08 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Thanks Brock for posting this - YESSSSSSSSSSSSS ! Did they have to wait for Ted to pass ? (0.00 / 0)

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by: politicalmadman @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 20:41:40 PM CST

he has been restricted since 2007 ... (0.00 / 0)

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by: johnk @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 07:00:55 AM CST

[ Parent ]

wrong, brock (0.00 / 0)

He wasn't excommunicated.  Denial of communion is just what it sounds like.  Excommunication is a far more serious punishment, where one is banned from all sacraments and participation from the Church.  

For example, if  did not meet the fasting requirement according to the Code of Canon Law, I can rightly be denied Communion, but in this act I am not excommunicated.  

Furthermore, if he was excommunicated, the laity would be informed of this, as excommunication is a public proclamation since he is a public official.  He was neither told to have been exommunicated by either latae sententiae or ferendae sententiae.  

The Bishop has made it clear that he feels Patches would be better off not a Catholic from previous statements, and excommunication is not meant to be a tool of punishment, but rather a measure to bring one back into full communion, so I am further apt to think this is not an act of exommunication.

Brock, as Catholics we must represent our faith accurately.  Patches is certainly not in the good graces of the Church, but it is super jumping the shark to call this an excommunication when it neither appears to be outwardly nor is confirmed to be by ecclesiastical authorities, which is would be in this case.  

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by: JoeTS @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 22:52:16 PM CST

Mea Culpa (0.00 / 0)

Joe, you are indeed correct that a denial of the reception of the Holy Eucharist is NOT an excommunication and my words were poorly chosen this morning.

The word "excommunication" does denote the withholding of communion, that is the Eucharist, but it is a broader & much more severe prohibition.  We've no indidcation that Patrick Kennedy is denied the rest of the sacraments or from attending Mass.

Excommunication (Latin ex, out of, and communio or communicatio, communion - exclusion from the communion), the principal and severest censure, is a medicinal, spiritual penalty that deprives the guilty Christian of all participation in the common blessings of ecclesiastical society. Being a penalty, it supposes guilt; and being the most serious penalty that the Church can inflict, it naturally supposes a very grave offence. It is also a medicinal rather than a vindictive penalty, being intended, not so much to punish the culprit, as to correct him and bring him back to the path of righteousness. It necessarily, therefore, contemplates the future, either to prevent the recurrence of certain culpable acts that have grievous external consequences, or, more especially, to induce the delinquent to satisfy the obligations incurred by his offence. Its object and its effect are loss of communion, i.e. of the spiritual benefits shared by all the members of Christian society; hence, it can affect only those who by baptism have been admitted to that society. Undoubtedly there can and do exist other penal measures which entail the loss of certain fixed rights; among them are other censures, e.g. suspension for clerics, interdict for clerics and laymen, irregularity ex delicto, etc. Excommunication, however, is clearly distinguished from these penalties in that it is the privation of all rights resulting from the social status of the Christian as such. The excommunicated person, it is true, does not cease to be a Christian, since his baptism can never be effaced; he can, however, be considered as an exile from Christian society and as non-existent, for a time at least, in the sight of ecclesiastical authority. But such exile can have an end (and the Church desires it), as soon as the offender has given suitable satisfaction. Meanwhile, his status before the Church is that of a stranger. He may not participate in public worship nor receive the Body of Christ or any of the sacraments. Moreover, if he be a cleric, he is forbidden to administer a sacred rite or to exercise an act of spiritual authority.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathe...

"Tomorrow will be better for as long as America keeps alive the ideals of freedom and a better life." - Walt Disney

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by: BNCordeiro @ Sun Nov 22, 2009 at 23:03:15 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You're a class act Brock (0.00 / 0)

for standing corrected!

"Work is the essence of Man."

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by: Karl Marx @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 05:53:58 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I have always felt that brock cordeiro is a class act. (0.00 / 0)

And I am very happy that there are still knowledgable, faithful Catholics out there.  Nothing really tickles me pink like driving in New Bedford and seeing a house with not less than 3 Virgin Mary statues on the front lawn.  God Bless the South Coast.  

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by: JoeTS @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 11:56:29 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Brock, you noted that Bishop Tobin took a public step, he didn't ... (0.00 / 0)

Patrick Kennedy took the public step.  

It's an interesting story, the excommunication thing plus now implying this is trying to hard.  A factual post is enough here, making things up takes away credibility.  

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by: johnk @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 07:04:45 AM CST

Tobin's Actions (0.00 / 0)

Tobin did indeed make a private act of correction towards Kennedy that was made public by Patrick.  Of course, Tobin must have known the possibility of Kennedy's action.  A private action-made-public isn't Tobin taking out a press release in the Providence Journal.  You are correct.  Perhaps I needed a second cup of coffee yesterday.  However, the entire exchange did happen publicly, except for the actual issuance of the prohibition.  We've been reading about this - with dueling media apperances - for weeks now.

Now, the underlying issues do remain the same.  Bishop Tobin is one of the very few bishops to take an affirmative step towards censoring a Catholic elected official.  Will Cardinal O'Malley or my Bishop George Coleman follow suit?  How about the the bishops of other Catholic politicians who are not pro-life & are in direct opposition to Catholic teaching?

HAVE other bishops done so...but are being quitely disobeyed by their flock?  Why did Kennedy go public with his private correction?  What value does it have for Kennedy?  Does it have any value towards the anti-life movement?

"Tomorrow will be better for as long as America keeps alive the ideals of freedom and a better life." - Walt Disney

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by: BNCordeiro @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 07:37:51 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Let him take Communion. (0.00 / 0)

Patrick Kennedy has a severe mental disability. The Church should treat him no differently than any other person who rides the short bus.

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by: geo999 @ Mon Nov 23, 2009 at 08:27:56 AM CST