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Obama can't help but inject himself into Trayvon Martin case.

by: Vote3rdpartynow

Fri Mar 23, 2012 at 12:48:41 PM EDT


President Obama shamelessly injected himself into the sad Trayvon Martin case today, much the way he did with Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates.  (Trayvon Martin was a young black teen killed under questionable terms by a neighborhood watch team) In a Rose Garden speech where he was to announce his choice for the new head of the World Bank he decided to comment, as he so often does, on something he is not supposed to comment on.  

His comments can be read here.

What is sickening is the way the POTUS injected himself into this particular story.  First, as is now typical, he comments that he can't say to much about the issue - then proceeds to say much about the issue.  He talks about how the issue would affect his own daughters, and then states that Trayvon Martin looks like his son - if he had a son.  In other words, an attack, accidental or otherwise, on a young black youth is an attack on him and his family - even if the family member in question is a nonexistent son.  What a narcissistic fool!

Obama also stated that his Attorney General would be investigating the case to find out what happened.  I can only imagine someone acted stupidly!  It's funny how Attorney General Eric Holder has to be dragged kicking and screaming to a House investigation into gun running to Mexican drugs lords (Fast and Furious = thousand of guns and dead US border agents), but runs full speed toward a case in which a young black man is killed in questionable terms.  

I assure you this is not our POTUS saying stupid stuff once again.  This speech today is a carefully crafted sermon that elevates race into the public spotlight so Obama can avoid the problems with the economy for another week or two.  This story will make the mainstream media salivate!  They will show Obama making a number of 'MLK' type speeches that will play to his base and get black America whipped into a frenzy.  He is playng the race card pure and simple.  

We are going to see stories like this elevated on a daily or weekly basis to front page stories so Obama can march, sermonize and minister to his base about the ills of society, guns and the never ending racial divide.  'Those damned white folks clinging to their guns'!!

The best thing the GOP mouthpieces can do right now is keep their mouths shut about this case and hope it goes away. Every minute Obama prattles on about it will be one less minute he talks about the economy and the problems affecting everyone else in America.  

Oh, and don't be surprised is he has to have his minions (enter Al Sharpton) coerce a bit of street violence and a marching protest or two to get everyone's attention to this matter.  I would go so far as to say seomone else will die before this is over....  Thanks again Obama for making the USA a more racially divided country...

Vote3rdpartynow :: Obama can't help but inject himself into Trayvon Martin case.
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Re: So...? (0.00 / 0)
So, the President of the United States should say nothing about a case very concerning to citizens?  

Obama himself admitted he couldn't say anything about the case... (0.00 / 0)
as it is part of an ongoing investigation thru the AG's office.  Yet, he can't help himself.  And to personalize it makes me sick.

A couple days ago he stated that it was a local story and he had no comment.  Now he wants to talk about it - even though he shouldn't.  I guess it beats talking about the stagnant and jobless economy, doesn't it?

Ed Markey is now the official 'cheapest' man on earth.  1.5 percent to charity while the average American gave 3 times as much...


[ Parent ]
An13el...So you expect your President to say... (0.00 / 0)
...something as blatantly racist as:

President Obama said today the nation needs to do some "soul searching" over the shooting death of unarmed African-American teenager Trayvon Martin in Florida.

"If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon," Obama said at the White House.

So if Trayvon were white, what would Obama have said?

What did he say about this?

http://articles.nydailynews.co...

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: What's racist about that? (0.00 / 0)
Maybe I'm missing something, but the pattern seems to be:

1. Call Obama a racist for any statement he makes about anything involving black people

2. Invoke some horrible crime committed against a white person.

The President spoke to the fears of many black parents, especially those of us with sons. We have to have the talk about the inevitable police encounter before we even get to the "birds and bees".

I don't know what the President would have said. I would imagine that if he were asked about it, he would have responded that it was a tragedy and we need to have a national conversation about the proper role of guns in our society. Which I believe is pretty much what he did say. He didn't say we need to do some "soul searching" because of Trayvon's race. He said it because a 17 year old kid shouldn't be dead for walking in his own neighborhood.  


[ Parent ]
Everyone should be afraid. (0.00 / 0)
All it takes is a twitchy neighbor and you or someone else walking home late at night ends up dead.  The shooter claims it was justifiable, your corpse refuses to issue a statement to the police saying otherwise, and the whole situation is wrapped up and put into storage.  

---
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back." - G.K. Chesterton
http://red.ma.altercate.net


[ Parent ]
I plainly stated what I think is racist. (4.00 / 1)
And aren't you, and the President, going to look silly when the truth finally squeaks out of the MSM?

If you are missing anything, it is the truth.

1)  Obama is demonstrable racist.

2)  I could invoke HUNDREDS of horrible crimes commited against blacks (by all manner of peoples) that happen EVERY DAY that Obama does not speak about.  

Did Obama speak about the Mattapan killings?  Hmmm...lemme see......NO....and why?  Because those killings (while MORE tragic) don't fit the racist theme.  Notice how Zimmerman is a "white hispanic"?

That the President (and you?) is "black" doesn't make him more sensitive or more attuned to fear of these things.  Nor does it give him some moral high ground.  All it makes him is a "race-first" person.  I'm white, and my son is white and I am not immune to the trepidations of him having to trek to Boston Latin on the T every day.

If "black" parents have anything to fear, it is only a click away to view the crime statistics.  Black on black crime is the problem.  Illegal guns in the inner city.

Sure, there is always an outlier like Zimmerman, but if Martin kept on walking, he'd probably be alive today.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: Invoke all the crimes you want... (0.00 / 0)
As a black man, I am well aware of the crimes committed in urban centers every day. Talking about one issue doesn't mean you're ignoring the other issue. The key issue is a man shot a kid and is not being held to account for it. End of story.

And, the idea that a free American citizen should be killed by a self-appointed vigilante with a gun runs counter to civil rights. I should be able to walk anywhere I want in this country without fear of a unofficial policeman confronting me.

Black parents know all about the city. We live in the city. And, so called black on black crime is a major problem. But, I don't believe in calling it black on black crime. Why? Not to obscure the fact that black people are committing crimes. But, calling it that takes it out of the realm of a societal problem for all of us to solve and puts an undue burden on the victims. It also lessens the impact. "It's just them killing each other." is a common refrain. To me, it's just crime, which affects all of us.  


[ Parent ]
You must not be keeping up with the news. (0.00 / 0)
You said:

The key issue is a man shot a kid and is not being held to account for it. End of story.

Funny thing is, so far, other than the race-baiting Sharpton/Black Panther/Jesse Jackson /MSM cabal...it seems like this HAS been investigated:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/...

You end your "argument" with:

End of story.

Not quite the end you thought, eh?  But why wait until all the evidence comes out, right?  You already ended this story.  You've made up your mind (I'm wondering...if race doesn't matter...how/why have you made up your mind, despite evidence that disagrees with your position)...

It's ok to convict a "white hispanic" based upon what little evidence and race-baiting the MSM has let out, right?  Sure, that's meaningful.  One can't help but wonder if you would be taking issue with this if the scenario was black killing "white hispanic".  Would you be calling this a "high tech lynching"?

This is the trouble....you want it both ways.  You don't want race to matter unless YOU want race to matter.

That Treyvon is dead is terrible.  Never should have happened.  I don't think Zimmerman should have put himself (or Treyvon) in the position he did, but I don't think he was "vigilante".  More like busybody.  Seems the trouble began for Treyvon when Treyvon caught up with Zimmerman.  So....was Treyvon a "vigilante"?

No, I don't think so.  But I think (if the witnesses are correct) that he should have let the situation end when Zimmerman lost track of him.

And, as far as you being a "black man", YOU brought your race to the table.  I do not believe race matters when reviewing this incident...other than the fact that the Sharpton/Black Panther/Jesse Jackson /MSM cabal....and folks like YOU have made it an issue.  Again....have you ever seen the term "white hispanic" before (I guess it's ok to call Obama a "white black man" now too, right)?

You also say:

And, the idea that a free American citizen should be killed by a self-appointed vigilante with a gun runs counter to civil rights. I should be able to walk anywhere I want in this country without fear of a unofficial policeman confronting me.

Those are 2 different issues.

It now appears according to witness statements that this "free American citizen" was killed by this "self-appointed vigilante" AFTER the "self-appointed vigilante" lost track the "free American citizen", walked away, was pounced on from behind by this "free American citizen" and had his head bashed to the curb several times.  THEN, as this "free American citizen" saw and reached for the gun, he was shot and killed.

Quite a different scenario than the one you paint.

I'm not sure what you are getting at when you say calling black on black crime "black on black" crime "puts an undue burden on the victims".  That makes no sense to me.  How does calling it what it is an undue burden?

If it were "just crime", why would ANY statistics on race be kept?  If it were "just crime", why would racist-in-chief Obama feel the need to speak about it when he doesn't speak about EVERY OTHER CRIME???

Here's some numbers from the 2010 FBI #'s ( 2010 FBI) and the 2010 US Census ( 2010 US Census):
a) 196,817,552 (# of non-Hispanic/Latino whites) = 63.7% of the population
b) 42,020,743 (# of "Black or African American alone or in combination") = 13.6% of the population
c) There were 447 whites killed by blacks
d) There were 218 blacks killed by whites
e) There were 2,459 blacks killed by blacks (shown for reference only)

This shows:
a) That for every 902,833 white people 1 black was killed
b) That for every 94,006 black people 1 white was killed
c) A white person is 9.6X more likely to be killed by a black person than vice-versa.



"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: Clearly, race matters to you as well (0.00 / 0)
Race matters to you as well, apparently. Calling it black on black crime means you can wash your hands of the matter even if you live in the same city. Again, as far as I'm concerned, crime is crime. Or, does race only matter to you when it's used to portray blacks in a negative light?  

[ Parent ]
I don't believe I've "portrayed" anyone in a negative light. (0.00 / 0)
I am not responsible for the facts.  The truth is the truth, whether you see it or not.  Denying the truth serves only to perpetuate the root causes.

Nor will I shy away or back down because of your not so subtle accusation.

If you can't win on the merits of your argument, you resort to the thinly veiled accusation of racism.  I can't say I'm shocked.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: What? (0.00 / 0)
You called the President a racist for making a comment. Now, I'm a racist. I know what the truth is. Can't you see how nonsensical it is to say that race doesn't matter until you say it does like when you cite crime stats. I'm well aware of the reality of crime. Again, does it matter or not?

[ Parent ]
I see reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. (0.00 / 0)
I called Obama a demonstrable racist because of the nature of the comments he has made. If George Bush had made a similar comment about a white kid killed by a black man, I would find it equally objectionable.  I imagine you would have called for his impeachment over it.(See also: "The police acted stupidly".)  

I don't believe I called YOU a racist.

What is the truth An13el?  Enlighten me.  For as far as you have said, Zimmerman is guilty of murder.

But sorry....that doesn't seem to wash...

Police: Zimmerman story is 'consistent' with evidence in Trayvon Martin shooting

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012...

I know you desperately want someone (who happens to be "white hispanic) to be held accountable......and that desperation has led you to ignore the evidence.

The police seem to feel the shooting was self defense based upon that funny little thing called evidence.

Upon what do you base YOUR verdict?

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: Thanks for your concern... (0.00 / 0)
I can read just fine.  What would be objectionable about GW Bush saying the same about a white kid? You're hung up on the idea that the President somehow took a side by making a comment. I think like any other parent, he identified with the Martin family and the fact is, Trayvon and the President happen to be the same color.

Maybe there is something I'm missing in how that comment is at all racist.

I've never said Zimmerman was guilty of murder. Manslaughter, at best. I'm not the only person who seems to think so.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayv...


[ Parent ]
Try again... (0.00 / 0)
...I didn't say you couldn't read....I said you couldn't comprehend.

From the article YOU posted...

Serino filed an affidavit on Feb. 26, the night that Martin was shot and killed by Zimmerman, that stated he was unconvinced Zimmerman's version of events.

I wonder if it is because he hadn't talked to the 2 (yes 2) corroborating witnesses.

But Sanford, Fla., Investigator Chris Serino was instructed to not press charges against Zimmerman because the state attorney's office headed by Norman Wolfinger determined there wasn't enough evidence to lead to a conviction, the sources told ABC News.

I wonder what he thinks now that it appears Zimmerman told the truth.....

The Obama comment was racist because there was no reason to add the "looks like" into it.  None at all.  Race isn't supposed to matter (yet Obama brought race into it).

Do you think I can't sympathize because Martin doesn't "look like" me?

Do you think Obama would be incapable of sympathizing with me if my son were killed because he doesn't "look like" Obama?

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Because he said "looks like"? (0.00 / 0)
Really? That is your proof of the President's racism? Wow. I think the President has shown time and again his ability to empathize with people of all races. It resonated with him (and many other people)on a visceral level. Do you really think he would show you no sympathy if your son were killed. What do you think he says to the widows of the soldiers lost in Afghanistan and Iraq? "Hey, I would like to say you have my condolences, but your husband/son/father was white so tough break." Do you really believe that?

You keep saying race isn't supposed to matter, but you have automatically taken the side of a police force that has shown an inability to fully investigate the shooting death of a young man. Why are you so quick to believe the police? Especially now since they are trying to muddy the waters by leaking detrimental information about Trayvon.

I wonder what he thinks now that it appears Zimmerman told the truth

How do you know this?


[ Parent ]
Yes, really. (0.00 / 0)
But then, I'm just a "typical white person" (Obama said that of his grandmother btw).

I think his years sitting in the Rev, Wright's church are pretty ample evidence.  But you don't like proof, or read things that may disagree with your world view.

That's also how you can ask me questions like:"How do you know this?"

If you had read anything I had posted....and comprehended same, you would know the answer already.

How do you come to the conclusion that the police "have shown an inability to fully investigate the shooting death of a young man"?

Because they didn't string Zimmerman up, right?


"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: Because I don't agree with you, I'm not informed? (0.00 / 0)
But you don't like proof, or read things that may disagree with your world view.

Really? That's why I read this blog, National Review and countless others. Like I said before, you don't know me and I don't know you.

By the way, my grandmother was white and was not a "typical white person" in that she understood the challenges black people face. We are 13 per cent of the population and while some of us have deeply rooted problems, particularly the underclass, we have been as committed to this country and its promise as any other group.

As more information comes out, I think this case will get much more complex than, "black kid bad, white guy good" which seems to sum up your argument. But, this case is really irrelevant because your real issue is your hatred for the President based on phony charges of racism.

Acknowledgment of one's commonality with someone, whether it's race or ethnic background is not racism. In fact, I think the President has to take great pains to stay away from race because of people like you who really don't understand what racism is at all. Talking or referring to race is not racism. Depriving someone of rights and/or privileges that are available to everyone else due to skin color is racism.

If you are so concerned with racism, where is your outrage about the horrible things that have been said about the President, the First Lady and his children? They have been attacked mercilessly in crude and ugly ways that I keep being told don't exist anymore.

In any case, as far as Zimmerman goes, there should be charges and a trial. That's all anyone is asking for. If he is found not guilty, fine. But, the idea that someone can kill you and not be called to account for it, is unAmerican in my view.  


[ Parent ]
Re: I think I've gone as far as I can go... (0.00 / 0)
We'll see how this all shakes out so I'm done with this conversation, bizarre at times, but very telling. Anyway, I will leave you with two links to consider.

http://www.miamiherald.com/201...

http://motherjones.com/politic...


[ Parent ]
The really sad thing here An13el is... (0.00 / 0)
...that you haven't comprehended a word I have written.....

That you think mother jones is a good site tells me everything I didn't already know about your way of thinking.  I'll pass.

After all of this discussion...that you can still say:

"black kid bad, white guy good" which seems to sum up your argument.

This means that you really aren't open to discussion.  You haven't comprehended a word I've written.  You want the pre-determined outcome that you started with...."white" guy bad.

You keep saying "I don't know you", but you then go on to say absurdities like:

If you are so concerned with racism, where is your outrage about the horrible things that have been said about the President, the First Lady and his children? They have been attacked mercilessly in crude and ugly ways that I keep being told don't exist anymore.

Political figures of all stripes have vile things said about them.  I can't remember a President more insulted than George W. Bush, or a candidate more insulted than Sarah Palin.  I also can't remember a "first family" that has lived the life of luxury on our dime that these people have.  They are grifters in every sense of the word.

Your definition of racism:

Depriving someone of rights and/or privileges that are available to everyone else due to skin color is racism.

is weak because it fails to include favoritism of ANY kind due to race (quotas, preferences, etc...).

The fact that Obama NEEDS to acknowlege his "commonality" is a clear indicator.  He's lived little more of a "black" life than I have.  He's as white as he is black and was raised by his white mother and grandparents, yet seldom if EVER does he express his commonality with white people.

You sum up your argument thusly:

In any case, as far as Zimmerman goes, there should be charges and a trial. That's all anyone is asking for. If he is found not guilty, fine. But, the idea that someone can kill you and not be called to account for it, is unAmerican in my view.
 

So, what you expect is that even though the prosecutor has determined that there is "insufficient evidence" to charge Zimmerman, let alone try and convict him.....that there BE a trial.  THAT is UNAmerican.

You IGNORE innocent until PROVEN GUILTY.  Without EVIDENCE...HOW can Zimmerman POSSIBLY be tried and proven guilty?????  

You have COMPLETELY ignored the FACT that EVIDENCE has indicated that Martin ATTACKED Zimmerman and was shot as a result of the attack.



"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: Your choice... (0.00 / 0)
I actually have comprehended everything you have said. You have a narrative that you are sticking to. That's fine.

My point throughout this entire discussion has been this: A kid is dead for no good reason. There should be a thorough investigation. The shooter is a cop wannabe. He's not even chartered by the national Neighborhood Watch organization.
He has a criminal history involving violence, but somehow he is more credible. The kid is dead. He can't tell his side of the story. That should give any decent citizen some pause.

Not once have I mentioned Zimmerman's race.

BTW, the Mother Jones link is to the actual 911 logs released by the Sanford Police Dept of calls Zimmerman made. I think it's about 41 pages. You can actually skip the article since you don't consider them credible. But the logs come directly from the Sanford Police.

The other link is from the Miami Herald. If you choose to ignore it, that's up to you.

You have ignored the statements from Martin's girfriend with whom he was speaking on his cell phone just prior to the shooting.

You have ignored the initial statements from Zimmerman's father saying he did not have contact with Martin prior to the "attack". (Not true)

Also ignored by you, the assault on a police officer committed by Zimmerman, a charge that would land either of us in jail. But, somehow he skated on that. I wonder if the fact that his father is a judge magistrate has anything to do with that.

I can't remember a President more insulted than George W. Bush, or a candidate more insulted than Sarah Palin.

Your memory must not be very good. Hillary Clinton, anyone? And, you're a hypocrite. In the very next sentence?

I also can't remember a "first family" that has lived the life of luxury on our dime that these people have.  They are grifters in every sense of the word.

Why is first family in quotes? The President has not done anything or taken anything that any other President hasn't.

There has been a constant effort to delegitmize the President. He and his family have been called the N-word. They've been called ghetto and the children have been called sluts and whores. There have been e-mails sent by Republican officials in various states depicting them as monkeys.

And, you brush it off as inconsequential. If you want to oppose the President on policy, fine. That is every American's right. But, the crude innuendo about him and his family have no place in civil discourse.

And, I say the same for any public figure. That should not be the cost of being involved in our political system.

If favoritism is racism, are you admitting that all white police and fire departments and government agencies racist? If so, I applaud your honesty.

As far as expressing commonality, I have white grandparents. I have black grandparents. But, I have brown skin. I was raised in Roxbury. I am a black man. That's who I share a culture with primarily. I'm also American. That is part of my culture too.

The goal of MLK has been co-opted and twisted by so many  conservatives. The goal was to acknowledge everyone's civil rights as given by God and stated in the Constitution. That never meant that I couldn't discuss or examine being black in America. That doesn't mean I'm racist. You really need to reexamine your thoughts on this.  


[ Parent ]
I have ignored nothing... (0.00 / 0)
...for all your bluster, you really can't comprehend the meaning of how I approach this situation.

Eye witness testimony, which has yet to be refuted, indicates that in this situation, Zimmerman has told the truth.  His past has no more bearing on the issue than Martins.  I would hope that a serious "criminal background" would have prevented him from having a gun license in the first place.

The "neighborhood watch" stuff is just a smokescreen.  I said early on that I thought Zimmerman should have listened to the police and went home.

The 911 transcripts are available on Sanfords web site.  No need to go to motherjones.

Martins girlfriend's "testimony" would be, I believe, hearsay.

What Zimmerman's dad says is irrelevant.

What you are doing in pointing out Zimmermans past is exactly what you decry about the treatment of Martin.  Talk about hypocrisy!

Hillary Clinton was subjected to no where near the bile that Sarah Palin was.  No where near.

The President isn't forthcoming about his past, he isn't transparent as he promised he would be, and there are questions about his birth that we don't need to go into here.  They are legitimate questions.  That he is black has nothing to do with it.  John McCain was compelled to release documentation regarding his birth and it was reviewed by the entire congress.

The press had a field day with the Bush sisters.  

I put "first family" in quotes, because that is what they are called.  Simple as that.  You see racism everywhere.

I don't resort to crude innuendo.  I think they are grifters and I said so.  Nothing racist about it.

If favoritism is racism, are you admitting that all white police and fire departments and government agencies racist? If so, I applaud your honesty.

Absolutely absurd!!!

Where there are documented instances of white preference...simply because candidates are white, yes, that is racism.  But to say "all white" is racist on its face.

Racial quotas in place since the 60's are racist and you can read black men Thomas Sowell and Walter E. Williams for their discussions on that.

I do not judge you (or anyone) for identifying with this culture or that.  That is your choice.  But judging ME because I choose to view the facts of this case rather than the race of each actor isn't fair.  And, as I have stated, I believe it is racist.

I also have no problem with you discussing being black in America.  But the discussion should be honest at least.  

If I were to see you on the street, I would see a man.....if you saw me, you'd see a white man.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: Please... (0.00 / 0)
The link is not to transcripts of the 911 calls from the night in question, but logs of all the calls Zimmerman made to 911 and the complaints.

First Family doesn't need to be in quotes. It's an accepted term. That's what I was getting at.

I've read Sowell and Williams probably for a lot longer than you. I agree with some of their opinions, some I don't. Interesting you felt the need to mention they are black as if that would give them more credence with me.

Hillary Clinton was subjected to no where near the bile that Sarah Palin was.  

Was Sarah Palin ever accused of killing anyone like the right did for years with the Clinton?

Are you admitting to being a birther? Now I know for sure I'm wasting my time.

You don't have all the facts of the case. Nobody on this blog does. But, you seem to have exonerated Zimmerman. All I'm saying is let's have a trial.

That's all. So, I will leave you to your fever swamp of birtherism and other nonsense.  


[ Parent ]
You are full of it. (0.00 / 0)
And your illogical rants prove it.

I did not say Hillary Clinton wasn't accused of things, I simply stated the fact that the treatment of Sarah Palin was worse.

I have exonerated no one.  I have simply pointed out that the evidence as it has been presented does not indicate that charges are supported.  That you want more says more about you than it does about me.

I mentioned that Sowell and Williams are black men because they are, and their experiences growing up in America as black men is relevant because though both experienced the full onslaught of the experiences you have described, neither has attributed those experiences to racism.  Both are against quotas.  That is relevant to all of us.

I have not "admitted to being a birther".  I simply stated a fact.  Your attempts to label me as a racist have failed, so you jump to the next label.  Figures.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Are Gingrich, Romney, and Santorum playing the race card, too? (5.00 / 1)
This case does give one pause. (0.00 / 0)
There is a MA state senator who wants to introduce a "stand your ground" law.
http://www.masslive.com/news/i...

I've heard that a well armed society is a polite society (attributed to Robert Heinlein?).  However, as this case possibly demonstrates, the lingering and perfidious racism that still infects this country throws a wrench into that aphorism.  I've read quite a few posts on Reason.com's blog where everyone is quickly trying to distance this guy's actions from the "stand your ground" law.  I'm curious, how prevelent was it prior to this law that neighborhood watches did their rounds with guns?  

Do you trust your neighbors with having guns in their own homes?  How about if your neighbors decided to patrol the streets like Zimmerman?

---
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back." - G.K. Chesterton
http://red.ma.altercate.net


The notion (5.00 / 1)
that I would have a duty to retreat in the face of deadly danger is ludicrous.  Great...I get shot in the back, my wife gets raped, my daughter gets strung out in heroin and is sold into the sex trade.....so the poor widdle Massholes could feel better about themselves as more enlightened than those Texan barbarians.

I trust ANY of my neighbors with guns in their own homes....and I am pitiless about the poor bastard that breaks into my house.

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard


[ Parent ]
We're not talking about you. (0.00 / 0)
You have a military background. You know how to handle a weapon.  You also know what deadly danger is.

My neighbor, Mr. Joe Belowaverage, doesn't have any of that.  At best he has delusions of grandeur and at worse paranoid delusions.  He's going to kill someone over a "deadly danger" which isn't deadly or a danger.  

What's the solution there?  When he kills someone do we just "Aw shucks!" it away as the price of freedom.  Or is there a problem with a person like that owning a gun?  Or is the problem not that he owns a gun, but that the law gave him some blanket of protection in using it outside his home where he could harm others?

While it's tragic that Mr. Joe Belowaverage may accidentally kill a family member or may be more likely to off himself by owning a firearm, I'm prepared to accept that as a price of freedom.  But once you put people in danger who are outside of that domestic sphere, I think it raises troubling questions that need to be addressed.  At the moment, I'm down on the "stand your ground" law.

---
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back." - G.K. Chesterton
http://red.ma.altercate.net


[ Parent ]
Just about (4.50 / 2)
anything can be a deadly danger...depends on who the recipient of it is.  Hockey-dad killed a guy in a fist fight, remember.
...but that's not what I'm talking about.  It's this notion that, BY LAW, I MUST attempt to flee from deadly danger before defending myself.  Too late....wasn't trained to seek out my escape before ending the situation.  Take action......I don't check what's in my pockets before jumping in the pool when my <2yo daughter is about to jump in.

If some Joe Blow kills someone negligently...put the bastard in jail....don't make me endanger MYSELF by not allowin me to defend myself with my LTC.  The Joe Blows will get the message when one ends up in jail with Bubba.
I don't know about making a "stand your ground" law, as it's unnecessary if they just remove the "you MUST attempt to flee" laws....but Joe's a bigger danger behind the wheel than walking down my street.

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard


[ Parent ]
I do not have a military background... (0.00 / 0)
...and I am a far better shot with several kinds of weapons than my brother, the former 12 year military policeman.

His military background does not give him a higher sense of the deadliness of the weapons that we shoot.  I am well aware of the lethality of weapons (as is every sane person, shooter or not).  

Nor do I have delusions of grandeur.

The solution here?

First...let's find out what happened.  The media has been CLEARLY biased in its reporting of the incident.  Until we know what the police know, we know nothing.

You suspect something because it fits in with your world view/agenda.  You WANT the media to be correct because it makes you feel better about how you think.  You let your political ideology trump your brain.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
What Did Happen? (0.00 / 0)
I am most bothered by this case getting decided by the media and the interjection of politicians who won't let people do their jobs.
I am so sick of looking at pictures of 12 year old Devon next to a mug shot of Supernobody circa 2005. If the media were being honest why not show us more recent and available photos so we would at least have a better idea of what the actual situation was? Obviously we are not suppose to decide anything, but rather we are being instructed.

http://www.wagist.com/2012/dan...

Also why take down the facebook pages if this isn't a big white wash? We do not know what happened but it is starting to look like a jury will never find out either. This is just a classic witch hunt IMO meant to serve some other "greater good". Beware!


[ Parent ]
Good Questions (5.00 / 1)
The answer to the picture question is simple - the pic of him as a kid is far more sympathetic, and fits the meme carried by left wing media and tragedy t.v.

Matt Drudge ran a recent photo of Martin, which shows him to be considerably more adult in appearance, and he was immediately accused of being a "racist demagogue" by the fetid Soros organ media matters.

This case seems to have become distorted all out of proportion.

Half-stories are driving opinions, speculation is replacing information, and so many are getting so much so wrong so fast, that by the time the real story is told, most will be too entrenched in their positions to back out, and the rest will be too tired to care.


[ Parent ]
We're talking (0.00 / 0)
About South of Washington DC.  

Patrol the city with guns?  The only part of that question should be "How common was it to patrol the city?".  Whether people are carrying should never into the equation....they ARE trust me!  My anecdotal observation is there are probably more guns than cell phones.  It's just a way of life...and oddly enough I never made the connection...they are very polite.  

Suffering Battered Voter Syndrome since 8/31/1981


[ Parent ]
I have (0.00 / 0)
purposely avoided forming any strong opinion on this because I've heard major conflicting pieces of info from credible sources.

There's only two things I am certain of at this point.  A 17 Yr kid is dead and that is tragic.  The second is the accused has yet to have his day in court.

I have two words to everyone who already has a conclusion "Duke Lacrosse"

Suffering Battered Voter Syndrome since 8/31/1981


Yes, I too have heard wildly conflicting reports. (0.00 / 0)


---
"Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back." - G.K. Chesterton
http://red.ma.altercate.net


[ Parent ]
No need to worry about this.... (0.00 / 0)
Al Sharpton is on the scene and the Black Panthers have offered a $10,000 bounty for the accused to be sure justice is served.   The BPs actually produced a wanted poster for the guy.  

Somebody else is gonna end up dead because fo this....

Ed Markey is now the official 'cheapest' man on earth.  1.5 percent to charity while the average American gave 3 times as much...


[ Parent ]
Troubling (0.00 / 0)
But really who but the fringes is paying attention to the BP's anyway?  

And do we really think this guy is going to be hanging around Florida if he is free to leave?  Unless he is legally compelled to stay there, any decent friend this guy has here is saying "You need to disappear for a good six months".

The general public has the attention span of a gnat....a year from now (unless there are legal proceedings bring it to the forefront) ask someone who Zimmerman is and you'll likely hear "Is he the guy who filmed the Kennedy assassination?"....sad I know...but often the case.  

Suffering Battered Voter Syndrome since 8/31/1981


[ Parent ]
I wonder why Obama didn't comment on the Mattapan Massacre? (5.00 / 1)
There were 4 dead black people involved in the Mattapan Massacre - including a little boy that would have looked like Obama's son - if he had a son....

Ed Markey is now the official 'cheapest' man on earth.  1.5 percent to charity while the average American gave 3 times as much...

Re: There were arrests and a trial (0.00 / 0)
There were arrests and a trial in that case. Something which has yet to happen. The Trayvon Martin incident is a national story. The President is the leader of our nation. I think he has a duty, when asked, to comment on issues that concern us as a country. There are many people of all races concerned about this case.


[ Parent ]
Obama's "duty"... (5.00 / 1)
...is to say "I have no comment on this until all the facts come out.  We MUST let the police and local law enforcement do their jobs."

I'm just woudering if Obama saw the thug picture of Treyvon in the dew rag and baggy pants, giving the camera 2 middle fingers if he would have said he looks like his son would if he had one.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: According to the Sanford Police, their job was done. (0.00 / 0)
Local law enforcement basically closed this case a month ago. So, it has been "investigated". I think the President was within his rights to comment on this or any issue being discussed nationally.

Oh, by the way, "Hispanic" (I prefer Latino---my father is Puerto Rican) is an ethnicity, not a race. So, there are Hispanics who happen to white and Hispanics who happen to be black like me.

Some of the info you have is being sourced from white supremacy sites, by the way.

To be fair to you because I don't know you and you don't know me, let's take all the spectacle out of this scenario(like Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, who if the Martin family was smart would have not been invited to Florida.) I would have preferred they looked at the way DJ Henry's family continues to handle their own push for justice in the death of their son.

At the heart of this, a 17 year old kid is dead and a family has lost their son. He was deprived of the ultimate civil right, the right to be left alone. And, is now dead.


[ Parent ]
I have not sourced ONE THING from a "white supremacy" site... (0.00 / 0)
...that is simply a lie.

According to the evidence, this is also not true:

At the heart of this, a 17 year old kid is dead and a family has lost their son. He was deprived of the ultimate civil right, the right to be left alone. And, is now dead.

Re: DJ Henry...There is a huge difference in the cases....and in the families....

Regarding the investigation, Obama himself said:

Well, I'm the head of the executive branch and the attorney general reports to me, so I've got to be careful about my statements to make sure that we're not impairing any investigation that's taking place right now.

He should have said "no comment".

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Not you personally... (0.00 / 0)
But a lot of the alleged Facebook pictures and Tweets attributed to Trayvon were "discovered" (and, some proved false)by sites like Stormfront.

And, I did note the difference in the approach by the Henry family, a route I wish the Martin family had taken because people are reacting to the presence of Sharpton and Jackson instead of the tragic death.  


[ Parent ]
You can't have it both ways... (0.00 / 0)
You said:

Some of the info you have is being sourced from white supremacy sites, by the way.

You accused ME.  That is a lie.  What you said wasn't true. "Not you personally" is not an apology.

And, I don't think "people" are reacting because of the appearance of Sharpton and Jackson.  They show up where they are welcomed.

I think if Sharpton and Jackson showed up on the Henry's doorstep, they would have been asked to leave.



"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: Verify the primary source... (0.00 / 0)
Some of the info you have is being sourced from white supremacy sites, by the way.

That's actually not a lie. Some of this info is coming from Stormfront. It's being used on some conservative sites (which seem to be in overdrive to paint Trayvon as some drug dealing low life for some reason). So some of the info you have is questionable to me. I'm sorry you think I'm accusing you of something sinister. I'm just saying you should trace the info you have back to the original source.

I know Sharpton and Jackson would be asked to leave. I've stated before I have a ton of respect for how the Henry family is handling their search for answers in the death of their son.

So we do agree on something!  


[ Parent ]
The burden of proof is on you. (0.00 / 0)
YOU made the accusation An13el.  It is a dishonorable accusation, a false accusation and one you will not be able to substantiate.

You HAVE accused me, without proof, of sourcing information from white supremacy sites.  That is a lie.  Your attempt to paint me with it is a lie.

I have made no reference to any drug use.

I have sourced NOTHING from Stormfront, never heard of it, never went to the site.  I have sourced info from the S.F. Chronicle, ABCNews, CNN and FoxNews.  All of their info is sourced from the Police Dept and the Associated Press.

Your problem is that you went into overdrive to paint this as some coverup of the killing of a black kid the second you started typing.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: Apparently, you don't read (0.00 / 0)
I didn't say YOU went to the Stormfront site. Other sites which have some of this "information" about Trayvon picked it up from right-wing sites which originally sourced it from sites like Stormfront, which is a major white supremacist site. .

[ Parent ]
Oh, be sure I read....nice deflection... (0.00 / 0)
...to the fact you made a clearly detailed false accusation.

You can not point to one thing I have written here that can be traced back to a "white supremacy site".  Not ONE.

You can't convince based on the merits of YOUR argument, so you accuse me of "sourcing" from  "white supremacy sites" and when called on it, you say you didn't say what you said.

Face it An13el, your argument is race-based and weak.


"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: My argument has never been race-based.... (0.00 / 0)
Your initial post accused the President of racism so I challenged that.

BTW,

http://www.businessinsider.com...

This is a link to Business Insider, one of the many right-leaning sites that was sourcing information and photos from Stormfront, a well-known white supremacist site.

Here is another

http://littlegreenfootballs.co...

There are a lot of people on the right seemingly invested in slandering Trayvon Martin to justify Zimmerman's actions.

You keep saying I have a narrative and a "world view" that doesn't fit the facts. I don't know all the facts. I wasn't there and neither were you. But, you seem comfortable quoting all the statements from Zimmerman's side.

Am I wrong?  


[ Parent ]
Yes, you are. (0.00 / 0)
Yes, I stated that the President was racist and I have argued my position.  Other than that...go back and read how this started and how you have perverted my meaning from the beginning.

I have sourced nothing from business insider or little green footballs.  I could care less what "others" are saying.  This is a discussion between me and you.  In this discussion, you accused ME of using information sourced from "white supremacy" sites.  You lied, I have not.

You are painting me with too broad a brush because it is easier than actually thinking about MY argument.

Everything you have said since you identified yourself as a "black man" has been race based.  

There are a lot of people on the right seemingly invested in slandering Trayvon Martin to justify Zimmerman's actions.

Yet you ignore all those on the left that are looking to use the death of this young man to push forth a far left agenda.  Including the New Black Panther Party.

And, in another post, you did exactly the same thing.  YOU are seemingly interested in slandering Zimmerman to justify YOUR desire for him to be tried.....even though there is insufficient evidence to justify a charge, let alone a trial.

Can we at least agree that neither of these two dudes is spotless?

Unlike you, I'm focused on the evidence that has been released, not the skin color of the 2 involved.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
Re: I will concede... (0.00 / 0)
I will concede that nobody is spotless, but I see nothing that warrants someone losing his life. If you do, I don't get it.

Give it up with the NBPP. Nobody cares about them. Nobody.

As far as the sourcing issue. Those links tell you where the information you cite originally came from. I didn't say you sourced LGF or Business Insider.

I have been thinking about your argument from the beginning. The President is racist. Martin's death is justified. And, apparently, I'm a racist too.

I have said repeatedly all the facts are not available to either of us. I believe further investigation is warranted. I will also note it to be of interest how Zimmerman got out of jams that would have meant jail time for you or I.

Anyway, for the record, I'm not a racist and never have been. I'm just interested in why anyone would think the end result of the Zimmerman-Martin encounter is okay and not interested in addressing the conditions that allowed it to happen.  


[ Parent ]
You simply don't get it. (0.00 / 0)
I never said that anything warranted the death of Martin.  I never even implied it.  But you're acting as if Martin was shot in the back from 40 feet while fleeing Zimmerman, and that simply doesn't appear to be the case.

The NBPP has millions of supporters, and Holders refusal to go after them for voter intimidation and the $10,000 bounty on Zimmerman is proof of support.  

(I'd also like to mention here that race-baiter Spike Lee tweeted "Zimmerman's address"....though it wasn't....forcing a elderly couple from their home for fear of their lives.....)

The information I cited did not come from your links.  You can flog that horse a little more, but you still lied.  Your continued attempts to brow beat me are pointless.  Read Fox, CNN, ABCNews and the SF Chronicle yourself.  They cite the police and State officials only.  They don't get their information from white supremacy sites.

Though lately you are saying facts are not available, you continue to ignore the facts that are.  The police investigated, concluded that they had no evidence to charge Zimmerman.  Those are facts, and thus far, they are undisputed.  I'm not sure what "facts" you think are unavailable, but there are facts available.

You may note that Zimmerman's legal troubles would have landed us in jail, fine.  I'll stipulate....if you agree that Martin appears to have been going down a bad road himself....and if death wasn't at the end of it, jail time certainly was.  As we have agreed, both are spotty characters.

You say you aren't a racist, and I'll take you at your word.  However, the way you have approached me and this discussion with me, I'm having a hard time with that.

I don't believe anyone reasonable has said that it is "okay" what happened.  Quite the contrary.  I think the calls for Zimmerman's death, imprisonment, arrest, etc....have been quite unreasonable based on the available evidence.

We shouldn't be a lynch-mob society.  The police did their job.  If there is some sort of evidence they didn't, I'm all for opening this up again.  But let's be honest here, Zimmerman put himself in a bad situation, so did Martin.  

All I've said is that the evidence released to date indicates the police investigated and found insufficient evidence to charge Zimmerman.  Is that fair?  Only God knows.  I don't have to be "happy" about it to accept it.

As for "the conditions that allowed it to happen"...this is the first you've mentioned that.  Not sure what you mean.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  


[ Parent ]
With regard to the NBPP (0.00 / 0)
http://www.amazon.com/Injustic...

The Department of Justice is America's premier federal law enforcement agency. And according to J. Christian Adams, it's also a base used by leftwing radicals to impose a fringe agenda on the American people.

A five-year veteran of the DOJ and a key attorney in pursuing the New Black Panther voter intimidation case, Adams recounts the shocking story of how a once-storied federal agency, the DOJ's Civil Rights division has degenerated into a politicized fiefdom for far-left militants, where the enforcement of the law depends on the race of the victim.

http://www.wnd.com/2011/10/351...

Newly resurfaced photographs show President Obama appearing and marching with members of the New Black Panther Party as he campaigned for president in Selma, Ala., in March 2007.

BigGovernment.com posted the photographs, reporting the images were captured from a Flickr photo-sharing account before they were scrubbed.




"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
This sad tragedy is not about Racism, (0.00 / 0)
its about territoryality and testoterone. It goes on everyday in pretty much every City in this Country and perhaps the World.

This event bares little difference with daily White on White neighborhood gang crimes, Black on black, Hispanic on Hispanic, Asian on Asian, etc. and or any combination of skin color, religion, nationality, creed or purpose (such as a homeless or gay Community).

Even though this event included a Black and a Hispanic man, most often victims in these types of crimes are of the same race. They are bravely (or foolishly), venturing in to boundries where they have not yet been "Accepted" for any number of reasons. And of course at night, under the cover of darkness is obviously when everyone is the most suspicious of all possible intruders.

Should everyone be safe to walk down any street at any hour of the day? Of course, but we don't (except perhaps in Singapore); We know the dangers that face us as we stray from our own "accepted" areas.

Is this just painfully wrong? Absolutely, and look at the horrible consequences; however its not Racism. It's primarily based on territory and its all inclusive. We could possibly better define it as Humanracism.


Tell this to the Black Panthers..... (0.00 / 0)
They can be reached in Florida where they are currently searching for Zimmerman and have placed a $10,000 bounty on his head.

Has Obama spoken out against the bounty yet?  One would think the POTUS would condemn such an action.....  Oh wait a minute - I forgot...Barack Hussein Obama is the POTUS.....Nevermind.....

I wonder what Obama would say if the KKK set out a bounty on someone?  

Ed Markey is now the official 'cheapest' man on earth.  1.5 percent to charity while the average American gave 3 times as much...


[ Parent ]
Re: The BPP (0.00 / 0)
I think if he is asked about it, he will comment. I don't know why everyone gets upset about a fringe group that no one of any consequence in the black community cares about. They are free to exist and act like idiots. They're really not worth anyone's attention. I feel the same way about the KKK except for the fact that they have a documented in countless graphic and gruesome pictures of making good on their threats.  

[ Parent ]
I wonder what he would say... (0.00 / 0)
...since the Justice Department has refused to investigate them.....

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
I Think That a Bounty (0.00 / 0)
...being offered by an openly racist organization, operating under criminal leadership, and with a notorious history, constitutes a real threat, and should be investigated as such.

[ Parent ]
How do we know that's not happening already? (0.00 / 0)
I would imagine they are being investigated. It's a high profile case with the world's attention.

[ Parent ]
We Don't Know. (0.00 / 0)
How do we know that's not happening already?

But the absence of a complete set of facts has not deterred many from making broad assumptions of guilt or innocence in this case.

By stating that the racist group is not being sufficiently investigated, I'm simply following the meme of all who have gratuitously opined that Zimmerman is a murderer, res ipsa loquitur.


[ Parent ]
You made a good point...not (0.00 / 0)
Cute. I don't think he's a murderer, but he is guilty of manslaughter at the very least.  

[ Parent ]
Again, Who Is The Problem Here? (0.00 / 0)
You have just here and now convicted a man, sans evidence, of a heinous crime.

Can you honestly consider yourself fair and impartial, having done that?


[ Parent ]
Oh, you mean without evidence, right? (0.00 / 0)
That doesn't mean I can't have an opinion, does it?  

[ Parent ]
Yes, (0.00 / 0)
...one is free to hold an "opinion", with or without all the facts.

*And for the record, we are now in the margins. This is as far as I go.


[ Parent ]
Question (0.00 / 0)
I've been reading and trying to understand your position.  Laying aside all the comments about who is being racist and who is not and looking at the players as two people (call them purple if you want).

An adult is out walking in his neighborhood armed...from the accounts I've read he's somewhat of a nuisance to the police.  And he sees a kid who he thinks might be up to no good.  Maybe that assumption is based on race, age, unreasonable suspicion....whatever the case....for some reason he is suspicious and starts to follow him (albeit perhaps completely unjustified).

So this kid realizes he being followed and hides.  When the pursuer loses him and gives up following....the pursued attacks him  and a very physical scuffle breaks out.  In the course of that scuffle the attacker reaches for the gun and ends up dead in the struggle.

In this hypothetical case you still consider the shooting manslaughter?

I have to think....if I'm walking outside at night and have a gun and someone attacks me (under any circumstances) and reaches for the weapon...someone is going to get shot.  I don't care whether you're black, white, purple, young, old, male, female....once you attack and I am in fear for my life all bets are off.  That may be a politically unpopular position in MA....but I'd be alive (possibly head injured) and politically unpopular rather than the alternative.

I'm not saying this is what happened...my only contention is young dead man does not automatically mean the shooter is guilty of anything.  But the media seems all too willing to portray it that way, and Sharpton et.al kind of make it that way independent of any facts to the contrary.

Suffering Battered Voter Syndrome since 8/31/1981


[ Parent ]
Back to the original point! (5.00 / 1)
Why did Obama get involved in this crime? Its so obvious its almost pointless to discuss.

RE-ELECTION!

Obama won the 2008 election with 96% of the black vote.

Polls indicate that the minority communities are nowheres near as energized this election year (nor may the white majority voters be);and he realizes that given the anger of these same potential voters relative to this case, its a rallying opportunity to get his much needed votes again.

This Presidency, like many others, is all about ego and their legacy. Elsewise, he would of done the right thing and stayed out of the matter or quietly tried to diffuse the problem with little concern about being abandoned by voters.

Obama may not be a good President but he's a lifelong politician.


Bingo (5.00 / 1)
I am not saying the guy is inhuman but he is now and will away be a political animal who makes choices based on how he perceives it impact his political ambitions and legacy.  When Frontline did their biography piece on BHO they were explaining how he choose Rev Wright's church, not because of the message, or the Rev but because it was a strong foothold in the black communities within Chicago....it was a place to see and be seen.  I don't believe he buys into Rev Wrights baloney because he wasn't there often enough for any of it to sink in.  He was there when he needed to be.

He hears about polls like we do and every one seems to indicate he has lost credibility with voters of color who helped elect him.  They realize that for the first time in their lives we elected someone who was their choice and their lives are essentially no different.

When something like this comes out he almost has to join in if he expects to have any relevance with demographics he should carry easily.

By the time someone reaches that level of office emotion  and feeling are replaced by choices and results.  If he was comfortable with his chances for re-election we'd be hearing 'no-comment'.  Inserting himself gets the bases riled up (to attack and defend) and that unenthusiastic  portion he needs to comes to his defense....and he knows it.

We here are doing EXACTLY what he hoped for.

Suffering Battered Voter Syndrome since 8/31/1981


[ Parent ]



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