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"Fishmanned" in the 6th

by: chipford

Wed Nov 07, 2012 at 23:03:09 PM EST

My comment in today's Salem News, read by Howie Carr this evening:

Thank the next Libertarian you meet for more intrusive government, higher taxes, and public corruption. Fishman enabled them all and made a huge contribution to their continuance. Without Fishman's Quixotic and meaningless campaign and his 5% vote total, John Tierney would have been defeated. I'm sure Congressman Tierney appreciates the Libertarian's contribution to more of the same - the incumbent couldn't have won another term without the third-party assist.

From time to time new terms come into the political lexicon and stick, such as "being Borked." A new one is deserving today, being "Fishmanned" in a close race where otherwise a viable, good candidate would have won.

Nice job, Daniel; you must be proud. Thanks for empowering bigger government and higher taxes. They couldn't have achieved this success without you.

-- Chip Ford

chipford :: "Fishmanned" in the 6th
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Another new term (s) (4.00 / 1)
for spending millions of dollars in useless attack ads instead of articulating policy and issues positions to voters. It's called a "media Tisei". (note this was going to be called a 'media "Brown"out' until that beach ad).

And don't forget to add "Tisei"ing to the lexicon. That's what it's called when a campaign knows the field of candidates it is facing yet fails to create a strategy that can win. Having failed on election day they begin "Tisei"ing or blaming other campaigns/candidates for their failure. Not my fault, its that damn (insert any third party candidate into this whine). In 2000 in FLA this was known as a "Gore"ing but updating the language seems right.

. . . and yet one more. Blaming the voters for not supporting your campaign through the use of unfounded voter fraud claims (add in welfare checks as the reason when urban areas are involved for extra credit). "Trumping" the voters!

You're wrong Striker. Any Republican running in that district starts (0.00 / 0)
at a huge disadvantage. As with any campaign, I'm sure Tisei made tactic errors. But from the start one can say a third party candidate hurts the challenger no matter what any candidate says on the issues or character. Fishman himself preferred Tisei. What's with that? Didn't the people know than on one-hand Fishman's party doesn't believe in Social Security or Medicare and doesn't believe the church should be forced to fund contraceptives because it believes the government should be out of that business. Were the voters who couldn't vote Republican that fully informed?

Here's the Newport Daily News

Fishman, who said yesterday that he was "stunned at the results," said he would have preferred Tisei in Congress over Tierney, because the Republican would raise the national debt more slowly than the Democrat. But Fishman completely disagreed with the notion that he took votes away from Tisei.

He polled 100 people per week throughout the election, he said, and the results indicate that he took very few votes from either candidate.

When supporters were asked why they were voting for him, "the overwhelming response was, 'I'm voting for you because I believe John Tierney stepped over the line, and there's no way I could vote for a Republican at this point in time," Fishman said.

"When we asked who are you voting for and why, one thing was very apparent: A lot of people in the district would not vote for a Republican no matter how progressive he is, because of national issues."

Fishman pointed to other culprits for Tisei's surprising loss. The Massachusetts GOP's unjust unseating of young delegates supporting Ron Paul turned off a lot of young supporters across the state, he said. And independents and dissatisfied Democrats were turned off, he believes, by the GOP's backward platform and outrageous comments about rape from some Republicans on a national level.

"Work is the essence of Man."

[ Parent ]
It's the Urkel (0.00 / 0)

"Did I do that?"

Yes, Mr. did do that.  This is Massachusetts...a place where Republicans don't stand much of a chance to begin with...not even against a criminal family.
When the race hinged on a 0.095% difference in results....350 votes....and you take 5%...16,668 votes...from mostly smaller government are the spoiler.

Own it, don't Urkel it.

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

[ Parent ]
That's a funny analogy. (0.00 / 0)
No one took anything.  Tisei isn't entitled to anyone's vote.  Fishman didn't steal votes, he earned them.

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[ Parent ]
Critical Component of the Response (4.00 / 1)
There is a part of the response that Fishman gave regarding from where his votes came that should, in my opinion, give Republicans pause:

When supporters were asked why they were voting for him, "the overwhelming response was, 'I'm voting for you because I believe John Tierney stepped over the line, and there's no way I could vote for a Republican at this point in time," Fishman said.

"When we asked who are you voting for and why, one thing was very apparent: A lot of people in the district would not vote for a Republican no matter how progressive he is, because of national issues."

We need to come up with a value proposition that encourages people to vote for us and makes being or voting for a Republican acceptable.  This is something that needs to be started now in time for the 2013 municipal elections and needs to be part of a long term multi-cycle effort.

[ Parent ]
This is exactly the point (0.00 / 0)
I just brought up at our RTC meeting tonight. We had 431 Fishman votes and 540ish blanks in Reading. I posed the question to my committee, "What could we have done, what message could we have proposed, that would've gotten us those 1000 votes." I'm sure there were similar situations in other towns that Richard carried. I don't have the answer to that question yet, but it's something we're going to work on.

G.O.P. Growth. Opportunity. Prosperity. For all Americans.

Karl (TLC)Weld

[ Parent ]
When you run... (0.00 / 0)
...a liberal republican against a liberal democrat, who can tell the difference?

Tisei lost because he failed to articulate a good conservative message....Just like Scott Brown, and just like Mitt Romney.  The reason?  They aren't truly conservative.

When will the GOP wake up?  When will the people bitching that the GOP should be more "moderate" and "inclusive" and "big tent" wake up?  The GOP loses elections because it fails to articulate a solid conservative message...PERIOD.

It should never have been close enough for Fishmann to matter.

"A political party cannot be all things to all people.
It must represent certain fundamental beliefs
which must not be compromised to political expediency
or simply to swell its numbers."
--  President Ronald Reagan

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
In Massachusetts it will ALWAYS (0.00 / 0)
be close enough for Fishman to matter.

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

[ Parent ]
I can't agree ES. (0.00 / 0)
If Tisei was an actual conservative, and ran a better campaign...

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
Presumes that (0.00 / 0)
"an actual conservative" message wins in Massachusetts.

Take a look around.  Hell, take a look around at the neighboring states that Massholes have invaded.

It might work in a town, but not in a district.....not in Massachusetts.

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

[ Parent ]
People keep telling me this... (0.00 / 0)
....but your candidates keep losing.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
Not "my" (0.00 / 0)
candidates....but do are YOUR candidates doing in Massachusetts?
How is this "true conservative" message doing?

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

[ Parent ]
Wouldn't know ES... (0.00 / 0)
Because I've yet to see it.

All I know is that your way ain't workin.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
"My way" (0.00 / 0)
is 100% Constitution, 100% of the exceptions, no apologies.
Gimme that Republican to support.

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard

[ Parent ]
this isn't 1860... (0.00 / 0)
...It's all about money.

I don't care about any social issues if any of them are going to add one more person to the government payroll.

Perhaps we shouldn't hijack a popular fiscally conservative movement with right wing religious social views we might be able to make some headway.

But keep telling yourself the same people who voted for Obama really wanted to ban abortion...

"Don't let me get away with it. Check me out. Don't be the sucker generation." -Ronald Reagan

[ Parent ]
You may not "care"... (0.00 / 0)
...but your "moderate" candidates keep losing.

How did pandering to women help Scott Brown?  It didn't.

How did being for h-mo marriage help Tisei?  It didn't.

These were liberal candidates who lost to liberal candidates...plain and simple.

I'm not talking about banning abortion.  When you people wake up and realize that the left keeps trotting abortion out there as an issue and you keep falling for it, maybe we'll get back on track.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
The other guy connected Tisei to the Tea Party... (0.00 / 0)
...and if the Tea Party wasn't taken over by people who's only concern was social issues, that wouldn't have been damaging.

Tierney painted Tisei as a social conservative, and so did Warren with Brown...  It doesn't matter that they weren't.

There aren't a lot of social conservatives in Massachusetts anymore.  They all moved, because they didn't like the environment.  So all that are left either have to get along with those who aren't, or whither and die.

The Paulbots are where the young people are headed.  We need to start working with them and have them work for us.  They will be poll checkers, sign holders, and door knockers.

V, keep telling yourself that we aren't conservative enough.  The Republicans have become social conservatives and fiscal liberals.  We need to be socially neutral and fiscally ultra conservative.

"Don't let me get away with it. Check me out. Don't be the sucker generation." -Ronald Reagan

[ Parent ]
I've been reading that here for years Dave... (0.00 / 0)
And the GOP keep getting it's ass kicked.

(The GOP has always been socially conservative BTW.)

Yeah...Charlie Baker was a social conservative icon (not)!

Look at the last couple of elections...the GOP candidates who were soft on social issues got their clocks cleaned.

I'm not advocating that social issues be the "be all...end all" Dave, but you can't be for the transgender bathroom bill, gay marriage and abortion and think you're conservative.  The country...or the state...doesn't need two liberal parties.

You have to realize that it's the Dems who keep tricking YOU and people who think like you, into thinking social issues are big issues, not me.

Scott Brown fell for it and it KILLED him.  Mostly because he has liberal principles and can't speak with conviction about conservative principles...even fiscal ones.

Tisei....on what planet is HE a conservative?

I've never bought the "Tea Party was taken over" BS.  It's a lame-assed excuse for piss poor candidates and campaigns.

Republicans don't lose elections because they have a bad argument (conservatism) but because they can't argue well.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
Go ahead try running Rick Santorum in MA (0.00 / 0)
See how many votes you get - I'll vote for the other guy whoever he is.

Brown won my community almost 2:1 - Rick Santorum would lose big time.

There is a city/suburb problem.

good comment from the WSJ

"With every election, the southern and central states drift further from the coastal sophisticates obsessed with social issues, and from the heavily unionized industrial states around the Great Lakes. But open up those Obama states and you'll discover divisions: Their big-vote city centers sit like blue moats of minorities and comfy singles who are surrounded by red counties of married couples trying to cope. California's passage of Proposition 30, which jacks up state taxes to subsidize the moats, is a harbinger. More red voters (and companies) will move out, deepening the divide."

[ Parent ]
Who is talking about Santorum??? (0.00 / 0)
And what does your article citation have to do with anything?

Brown lost...unless you missed that point.  And it wasn't even close.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
using your logic... (0.00 / 0) the 80's people didn't want to buy Pintos because they blew up...

...if Ford had blown up more Pintos, they would have been able to combat this perception?

It wouldn't matter if Ford put a Pinto badge on a Town Car...  Pintos blow up would be all anyone was talking about.

You have to convince people that Pintos don't blow up in order for someone to buy a Pinto again...  Otherwise Chevy is going to say Pintos blow up, don't buy one.

Or maybe the reputation of Pintos is forever sullied and should never be used again...

"Don't let me get away with it. Check me out. Don't be the sucker generation." -Ronald Reagan

[ Parent ]
Funny thing is Dave... (0.00 / 0) can't rebut one single thing I say (neither can roark) except trying to use a stupid analogy.

Not only that unwittingly proved my point.  

You let someone else define your Pinto narrative.  They didn't blow up in large numbers....(even if Mother Jones said they did)....but you fell for it anyway.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
I owned a Pinto and I liked it... (0.00 / 0)
...but perception is reality.

You want to embrace the narrative, I want to refute it.

It's not gay marriage that the demcrats are voting for it's the hand over fist entitlements, and huge government head count.

Your beliefs are important to you, I get that.  But as long as we have views that don't appeal to the majority of the electorate, we will not win...  

What part of that don't you get?

"Don't let me get away with it. Check me out. Don't be the sucker generation." -Ronald Reagan

[ Parent ]
It isn't what I don't get Dave... (0.00 / 0)
It's that you think I'm the one embracing the narrative.

YOU are the one falling for it, not I.

Funny how you are so worried about appealing to the people who just beat you, not the ones you need to help you win.

Brown lost not because moderates and liberals don't like him....but because conservative voters don't.

It isn't social conservatism that is beating the GOP in elections.  YOU think it is...THAT is the democrat narrative.  THAT is perception...NOT reality.

It is simply not the case.

Go ahead...join edfactor and roarkarchitect in trying to banish the socons from your precious "big tent" party.

The truly ironic thing here Dave is:  it's the socons you are losing...NOT the moderates.

Perception isn't reality have to change the perception, not cave in to it.

"We don't intend to turn the Republican Party
over to the traitors in the battle just ended.
We will have no more of those candidates who are pledged
to the same goals as our opposition and who seek our support.
Turning the Party over to the so-called moderates
wouldn't make any sense at all.""
--  President Ronald Reagan  

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
And you want to throw out the moderates... (0.00 / 0) what's the difference?

6 of one half a dozen of the other...

"Don't let me get away with it. Check me out. Don't be the sucker generation." -Ronald Reagan

[ Parent ]
Dave...I don't want to "throw out" anyone... (0.00 / 0)
What I'm a that to pander to people like billxi (who is a cranky, sanctimonious a-hole)...the GOPe, as of this election, has LOST the "hold-your-nose-and-vote" voter.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
Just One Flippin' Minute Here! (0.00 / 0)
   The missus made try to stop saying the "EF" bomb. Because I don't agree with your position totally, I'm a traitor?
  Got one statement for you Goober: 10% of the "big tent" beats 30% of your "real conservatives" every flippin' time.  

[ Parent ]
bill... (0.00 / 0)
...when I talk to you, you can open your pie hole...until then...crawl back under the rock you live under.

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
Please! (0.00 / 0)
   Don't ever want to talk to me. I can live happily ever after with that. That lying, scumbucket douchebag wronged me. Ain't libelwhen it's true.  

[ Parent ]
There you go Bill... (0.00 / 0) up to that hard earned reputation as a petulant, cranky, bitter a-hole.

Without insults and swears, you'd be nothing.  

(Come to think of it, you're nothing WITH

"Gee, I had no idea..."  Simple J. (Festus) Malarkey  

[ Parent ]
The Tea Party was also about tax cuts (0.00 / 0)
Tierney painted Tisei as a Tea Party Republican, as was done to Republicans all across the country:
Listen to Democratic Rep. John Tierney's TV ad against Tisei: "The tea party Republican agenda. Outlaw abortion ... Restrict birth control ... Billionaire tax cuts ... Middle-class tax hikes," adding: "Tea party Republicans and Richard Tisei... What it is ... Is too extreme."

Read more:

Yes, a major part of the attack is that the GOP platform doesn't even allow abortion in cases of rape, and that was what hung up the Republicans who tried to defend that plank. But most people I think knew that was never gonna happen, it was just a principled pro-life statement that pregnancy is life no matter how it started. It should have been easy to say that, yes, that's the party's principled position and always has been, but the reality is that isn't going to happen, even if they appoint eight more Scalias, states will still allow abortions in the case of rape and incest and the life of the mother. That was just scare tactics and should have been easy to dismiss.

It was the Tea Party's fiscal conservatism, the obstructionist insistence on not raising taxes on the top 1% that caused people to vote Democratic. That tax policy argument was real, that was really happening and affecting the country, unlike a ban on abortion in the case of rape. There was no way to say that electing more Republicans wouldn't lead to more Tea Party anti-government obstructionism and ridiculous fiscal irresponsibility, that was already happening.

[ Parent ]
The Tea Party (5.00 / 2)
as inspired by Rick Santelli, was about stopping the spending. Not tax cuts and not social issues.

G.O.P. Growth. Opportunity. Prosperity. For all Americans.

Karl (TLC)Weld

[ Parent ]
Yeah, that too, that's my point though (0.00 / 0)
the Tea Party wasn't just social issues, so it's wrong to say that it was just social issues that Tierney hung around Tisei's neck, the democrats hung the whole Tea Party on republicans, including the screaming rant against Obama's spending.

And we need to unpack "social issues" because there are not all one thing. I think the way to go moderate is not to embrace gay marriage or try for the Emily's List endorsement, but to reject the "Personhood" movement that says every embryo is a person with rights even before it is implanted in a woman's body. That is just too much, it leads to the rape issue and IVF bans and is just so extreme and wrong, heck it means millions of people die every month when a fertilized embryo doesn't implant in time. Brown and Romney and all Republicans should reject that extreme ridiculousness and say that life begins when the heart starts beating, so emergency contraception after rape is not killing a life, but preventing a life from starting in unethical circumstances. Those Personhood people are the extremists who killed the election for Republicans, not people defending rape or opposed to late-term abortion.

[ Parent ]
Oops (0.00 / 0)
That last sentence should say "Those Personhood people are the extremists who killed the election for Republicans, not people defending MARRIAGE or opposed to late-term abortion."

How come those Personhood Amendment people are skating on this?

[ Parent ]
Fishman got over 800 votes in Tewksbury, a town that went for Healy and McCain (4.00 / 1)
Where do you think those votes came from?

How about Lynn? (0.00 / 0)
In 2010 I recall "The Other Joe Kennedy" getting a lot of his votes in the cities.

[ Parent ]
Thank You, Barbara Anderson (1.00 / 1)
For eviscerating Dan Fishman on the radio this afternoon.

Listening to that vacuous, unaccomplished spoiler's mealy mouthed, puerile defense makes me all the more resolved to NEVER vote third party.

What a moron.
And double that for anyone who voted for him.

You're welcome, geo999 (0.00 / 0)
Not that it did any good.  The moron would do the same thing tomorrow.  The self-righteous libertarians are "principled" dontcha know, and the rest of us are not. There is nothing you can do with that kind of quasi-religious fanaticism.  Walk into the political bazaar, blow yourself up, and everyone around you.

[ Parent ]
Yup, that's what they do in the Republican party too (0.00 / 0)
I'd rather have Libertarians run as Libertarians and vote for Libertarians than have them run as Republicans or push Republicans to be more Libertarian. When they run as a Libertarian, I think they get at least as many votes from gays and pot smoking liberals who would otherwise vote for the Democrat as they do from people who would otherwise vote for the Republican. So the real damage comes when a self-righteous 'principled" libertarian runs as a Republican, cause though they may get some rich gay voters who would otherwise vote Dem if the R was a social conservative, they lose support of far more non-libertarian conservative Republicans who either stay home or vote for the Dem.

[ Parent ]
I voted Tisei... (0.00 / 0)
But I'll add that a vote in good conscience is never wasted.

You know what pisses me off more then anything. Watching a debate where a liberal democrat says, "I proposed a bipatisian piece of legislation (that is sure to raise your taxes)" and then points to Republicans like Tisei.

Matthew P. Carleo, Yobgoblin

Let's assume what you say is true. (0.00 / 0)
Richard Tisei was entitled to all the votes that didn't go to Tierney.  What is it you wanted done?  Higher ballot access requirements so Fishman couldn't get on?  Keep Fishman out of more debates than he already was?  Ignore Fishman's presence in polls even more?

I understand you and also Barbara are upset, but your problem isn't Dan Fishman.  First of all, people here need to ask themselves if they did all they could to help Tisei.  Did you max out?  Did you give every waking moment of your free time to donating and door knocking?  How important was it to you if not?  Second, I believe Tisei as well as Brown latched onto the "people over party" theme.  How then can you then blame people for eschewing party?  Barbara on the radio was making no sense at all going on and on about Republican Tisei.  Party is not supposed to be important, that was the whole idea.

Direct your angry at the fraudulent polls which are the reason you thought Tisei had it in the bag.  The poll that kicked it off was the partisan poll that didn't included Fishman (who was recently polling at 7%) and showed Tisei with a double digit lead.  Maybe people should stop releasing fake polls that are only meant to generate good press rather than an even somewhat realistic picture of the election.  Also, don't buy your own bullshit which it appears the Tisei campaign did.

On a few campaign flaws I noticed, perhaps Tisei shouldn't have blown off the first debate:

U.S. Rep. John Tierney and Libertarian challenger Daniel Fishman answered questions about Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security in front of about three dozen senior citizens. Republican challenger and former state senator Richard Tisei was not present.

Someone please justify the ad that ran at the very end.  The only way it makes sense is that Tisei thought he could coast to victory.  Who does that?  Is this t-ball?  Did he think there was a mercy rule?

I also suspect that some of Barbara and Chips's anger is as a result of them knowing that people went to the CLT site to read about Tisei's record.  We've noted it here before on RMG.

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RE: Let's assume what you say is trye (0.00 / 0)
I guess it was the highlight of Howie's show today!

WRKO>Audio & Video on Demand>>Barbara Anderson Gets Bullbleep At Libertarian Spoiler Dan Fishman

Barbara Anderson Gets Bullbleep At Libertarian Spoiler D...
Independent congressional candidate Dan Fishman of Beverly , Massachusetts received 4 % of...

        "Every tax is a pay cut -- A tax cut is a pay raise."

[ Parent ]
Ah yes, the wonderful Howie Carr. (0.00 / 0)
A man whose best last argument in support of Brown was...

Hasn't he done wonders for all the people he's backed? Muffy, Baker, Tisei.  The Midas touch!

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[ Parent ]
And you've won how many campaigns, Patrick? (5.00 / 1)

[ Parent ]
It's true, not many winners. (0.00 / 0)
The Fishman loss was a blow.

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[ Parent ]
Let me tell you about Howie (5.00 / 3)
Every year, on his show, he gives our candidates a minute on Election Day to make their pitch to get out their last minute vote. He has given statewide candidates and ballot questions time throughout their campaigns to get volunteers and contributors from his audience. He personally attends times for the candidates in his district,like Scott Brown and Sandy Martinez. He's personally stood in malls collecting signatures on ballot questions. His political philosophy is sound and he speaks for our side, makes fun of our enemies, and sometimes us too (we could have done without the Muffy thing, one mistake, but they're rare.) As tough as things are for our side now, they'd be tougher without our friends in talk radio.

[ Parent ]
Did Carr have Fishman on the radio prior to the election? (0.00 / 0)
Or was he also going along with pretending that it was a two person race?

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[ Parent ]
What are you talking about? (0.00 / 0)
Chip may post the radio "discussion" and you can make your own decision on how much sense I made.  I don't recall mentioning "Republican Tisei". BTW, I am not "upset"; I am outraged. FYI,  did everything I could to support him, sent checks, attended times, wrote several columns in the Salem News, held a sign on election day -- so yes, I now feel entitled, as is anyone who just voted for  him, to be very angry at the man whose silly self-righteous libertarian ego re-elected Tierney.
Yes, CLT was angry with Tisei when he didn't support the income tax rollback. That was before I supported him with Charlie Baker, when he apologized for that, and long before he became the candidate who could best represent me in Congress.  I'm not a silly childish ideologue who holds a grudge back to the stone ages even if it costs me someone who is better than Tierney next year in Congress. And I'm no longer a libertarian either, as of this week; will find a better description so I'm not connected in any way to Dan Fishman or his type, who voted for him.

[ Parent ]
Third-party spoilers are like ink blots: people see what they want to see (5.00 / 1)
Every time a third-party candidate is the spoiler for a hopeful challenger, this sort of analysis breaks out. Strangely, the third-party guy's success exactly fits the theory of the disgruntled analyst. Let's take this race as an example:

- For the social conservatives who backed Hudak and wouldn't vote for Tisei, of course they voted for Fishman.

- For those who hate the MassGOP "establishment" - and have always grouped Tisei with that crowd, of course they voted for Fishman.

- For libertarians who wish the GOP were more like them, of course all of these votes were from libertarians

- For those who can't stand the national GOP, of course they voted for Fishman to protest that

- For those who thought Tisei was "unprincipled" of course Fishman was "principled"

Add to that some voters probably knew Fishman and liked him personally and voted for him. Others might have shared his ethnicity and voted for him for that reason. Some may just hate the two-party system and voted for him for that reason.

The truth is, without reliable exit polling, we have no idea why people voted for him. But I don't blame the voters. That's almost always a pointless exercise.

I am with Karl Weld on this - it is best to talk about the Fishman votes and blanks at the local level and ask people what they were thinking - without blaming them.

I bet most socons voted for Tierney (0.00 / 0)
- For the social conservatives who backed Hudak and wouldn't vote for Tisei, of course they voted for Fishman.

Hopefully social conservatives know better than to vote for a Libertarian. I don't live in that district, but if I did I would have voted for Tierney, not Fishman.

It's ironic, because SoCons don't like gambling and don't like globalism and offshore companies that evade the law, while Libertarians and Republicans have no problem with that stuff, unless it's a Democratic Congressman's wife's brother who is doing it, then suddenly it's the crime of the century.

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A dynamic time (0.00 / 0)
We live in a time of fluid labels. I no longer know what someone means when they label themselves.

I agree that social conservatives, as the term has traditionally been used, should not vote for libertarians. For instance, I have always respected and liked libertarians, but I would almost certainly not vote for them.

And I know some social conservative Republicans in that district. There is no way in hell they voted for Tierney. But there were a lot of blank votes, so maybe they didn't vote for that race.

Now I do think that a good number of socially conservative Democrats might have voted for Tierney, but his vocal support for all-things-gay-rights probably made them hesitate.

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Standard Dem positions (0.00 / 0)
Is Tierney any more supportive of gay rights than other Democrats in Congress? I had the impression that he was just being a loyal Democrat, but wasn't known for pushing the issue the way Tisei was, just by being openly gay and Republican. I look at Tierney's Equality page on his website, and it seems fine to me, I agree with all of it. He even states his final goal is unobjectionable: "John will keep fighting for equality until LGBT Americans can live, love and work safely and openly in our society."

"Live, love and work safely and openly" is a modest goal compared to the Libertarian Transhumanist goal of overcoming gender and enabling people to change sex and procreate offspring with either sex. They both want to repeal DOMA (so do I), but Tisei said it is unconstitutional, and maybe he'd feel that way about a federal Egg and Sperm law or a federal law setting the effect of marriage. I think Tierney is more reasonable and open to compromise that respects gay people, gets them the benefits they need and deserve, but also recognizes the human rights at stake and the government's role in preventing unethical experiments and being prudent and practical with our scarce medical resources.

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Check the endorsements (0.00 / 0)
Tierney was endorsed, over a gay man, by every local and national gay organization. They will demand fealty for saving him. They will not be satisfied with half-hearted support.

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because he is a Democrat (0.00 / 0)
They were thinking of the balance of power in Washington, they know which party to support. They would endorse any Democrat who had the standard Democratic positions. They will probably demand something for saving him, but those organizations are not as radical as Libertarians are about reproductive technology and "getting the government out of marriage." What they will demand  is not so bad - it's just those things on his Equality page, which are fine with me, so long as we pass an Egg and Sperm law and preserve marriage's conception rights.

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Take it from a Pseudo Libertarian (0.00 / 0)
You need to be practical I would have backed, knocked on doors, called,  held signs  and voted for Tisei if he was in my district.

I even held a sign for a fiscally conservative D in my district.

BTW Being more conservative isn't going to get you elected in Massachusetts.

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Still stating the obvious? (0.00 / 0)
I've been away from RMG for awhile, missed you, roarkarchitect, but, you still have to state that being more conservative isn't going to get you elected in Massachusetts?  What part of this don't which posters understand?
Oh well -- Who is John Galt.

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