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Comment of the Day: The Federalist Papers on Arms and Tyranny

by: Rob "EaBo Clipper" Eno

Wed Jan 09, 2013 at 16:35:48 PM EST


Our good friend Ed Lyons has stated recently that an armed populace to protect against a tyrannical government is not what the Second Amendment is about.  He did so in this comment today.

I am totally for the second amendment. As a student of 18th-century American history, I am aware that the men who wrote the constitution and amended it sometimes brought guns to the proceedings! It is laughable that the second amendment is as small as Democrats think.

However, I do support some gun control. I think that since we now have more guns in America than we do adults who can fire them, that we probably have enough now.

I also think that many weapons that are legal now have no civilian use (hunting, home defense, etc). I am for limiting their use.

Of course, I have many GOP friends who think guns are about resisting tyranny, as if having a Bushmaster in the basement is going to matter when President Obama sends Seal Team Six to your house. :-)

In fact the Second Amendment is to protect against tyranny.  As ElectricStrawberry makes abundantly clear, in the comment of the day.

this is a prime example of the purposeful MISeducation of the People.
"We have enough guns now" is now the dumbest thing I've heard from ANYONE on this subject.  Really?  The Amendment does not have a limit of "well, there are more guns than adults capable of firing them, so no more can be manufactured, bought, or sold."  I have the right to own a friggin' 100 million guns if I so choose.  Not 1, 2, 3, 4000 or any other arbitrary number some government weenie deems is "enough."
Even MENTIONING "hunting" shows you've lost the argument to the libs.  The 2nd Amendment is not there to protect hunting rights.  Demand a refund for your 18th century American history classes....you've been miseducated.  Guess they forgot to teach you Federalist #46:

   Were it admitted, however, that the Federal government may feel an equal disposition with the State governments to extend its power beyond the due limits, the latter would still have the advantage in the means of defeating such encroachments. If an act of a particular State, though unfriendly to the national government, be generally popular in that State and should not too grossly violate the oaths of the State officers, it is executed immediately and, of course, by means on the spot and depending on the State alone. The opposition of the federal government, or the interposition of federal officers, would but inflame the zeal of all parties on the side of the State, and the evil could not be prevented or repaired, if at all, without the employment of means which must always be resorted to with reluctance and difficulty. On the other hand, should an unwarrantable measure of the federal government be unpopular in particular States, which would seldom fail to be the case, or even a warrantable measure be so, which may sometimes be the case, the means of opposition to it are powerful and at hand. The disquietude of the people; their repugnance and, perhaps, refusal to co-operate with the officers of the Union; the frowns of the executive magistracy of the State; the embarrassments created by legislative devices, which would often be added on such occasions, would oppose, in any State, difficulties not to be despised; would form, in a large State, very serious impediments; and where the sentiments of several adjoining States happened to be in unison, would present obstructions which the federal government would hardly be willing to encounter.

   But ambitious encroachments of the federal government, on the authority of the State governments, would not excite the opposition of a single State, or of a few States only. They would be signals of general alarm. Every government would espouse the common cause. A correspondence would be opened. Plans of resistance would be concerted. One spirit would animate and conduct the whole. The same combinations, in short, would result from an apprehension of the federal, as was produced by the dread of a foreign, yoke; and unless the projected innovations should be voluntarily renounced, the same appeal to a trial of force would be made in the one case as was made in the other. But what degree of madness could ever drive the federal government to such an extremity. In the contest with Great Britain, one part of the empire was employed against the other. The more numerous part invaded the rights of the less numerous part. The attempt was unjust and unwise; but it was not in speculation absolutely chimerical. But what would be the contest in the case we are supposing? Who would be the parties? A few representatives of the people would be opposed to the people themselves; or rather one set of representatives would be contending against thirteen sets of representatives, with the whole body of their common constituents on the side of the latter.

   The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects of ambition. The reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger. That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism. Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it

Guns are about protecting ourselves from a government slide to tyranny.  Not about hunting.

Rob "EaBo Clipper" Eno :: Comment of the Day: The Federalist Papers on Arms and Tyranny
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Well, well, welll... (2.50 / 2)
I am glad to now be such a threat to the far-right wing of the party that I am worth of a front-page assault. Good! It is working. :-)

When the founding fathers enshrined our right to keep and bear arms, they did imagine that it was a defense against tyranny. Were I alive at that time, I would have agreed, especially based on the way governments had operated up until that time. In fact, the amendment against testifying against yourself was not about taking the witness stand, but it was about the rack, and the screw!

But like a lot of things, times have changed since 1789.

In 1789, most armies, including the many militias of the day were just armed citizens with rifles. The average person could get a gun that was roughly as capable as what the military had. In fact, many military units had people in them that brought their own weapons.

Alas, times have changed.

Yes, the average person can buy a huge variety of single-shot and semi-automatic weapons. Some can easily be converted into fully-automatic weapons, though that is illegal.

However, the incredible, scary capability of the federal government has changed. The federal government - that you are supposed to be able to control through the purchase of an assault rifle - unlike 1789 - now has a scary array of weapons.

I spent almost three years at the Pentagon designing nuclear submarines. I had many friends who designed weapons for the government. You would not believe the scary *!&$ that the government has.

So while Rob and his ilk fantasize about leaning over the kitchen counter firing off rounds against a tyrannical government, the military can just vaporize your house with space-based lasers. We also can throw heavy rocks, asteroid-style - and vaporize your entire neighborhood. Or we can hit you with special lasers that will blind you instantly - so you can't fire your guns through the windows anymore. Or maybe they will use sonic cannons that won't just deafen you, but crush your skeleton.

Or maybe they will use chemical or biological weapons. (But don't worry! You have lots of magazine clips, right?) I'm sure you're ready for that.

Let's just say that they are lazy, and decide to send actual people to your house. So, when Seal Team Six arrives in the middle of the night, Rob - they will have used scary surveillance to know when you are asleep - and they crash through your window - what exactly is your plan?

Realistically,  you and your guns could hold off your local police department for several hours.

But if you think you're going to hold off a tyrannical federal government, you're living in a gun-nut fantasy.


The state has lots of scary weapons too (0.00 / 0)
States and cities spent oodles of federal cash buying armed assault vehicles and training their own SWAT teams, so they couldn't even hold off their local police for several hours anymore, let alone the FBI or DEA or whatever federal police force is clamping down on them. I sure hope the federal government has more strength than any state does, because as history shows states are often the tyrannical oppressors and the federal government is needed to protect people and restore liberty.

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It's not about 1 man in a standoff... (5.00 / 1)
Even in colonial times a single farmer with a musket wasn't going to hold off the British army.  This was never about the ability of one man on his own to take down the government -  it was about the sum all all the farmers, tradesman, lawyers, teachers,... together who stood up and said enough.  Once you give up those rights you can never get them back - even to this day an armed population is a defense against tyranny:

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[ Parent ]
Your point? (0.00 / 0)
The notion of an impotent armed civilian group, like say, the Syrian rebels, or the Libyan rebels, notwithstanding, what's your point?

Is it your point that because civilians are so out-guned, why bother?

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas


[ Parent ]
Big scary weapons (0.00 / 0)
No doubt the feds all have big scary weapons. Skull crushing sound rays, asteroid hurling tractor beams, as well as the ability to rain down death from a UAV. Only problem for all of these big tough guys that press the button is that they have to go home at the end of the day don't they?
They have to live in the neighborhood that was just crushed by that giant asteroid. They get to see firsthand the destruction they have created.
Unless of course we are going to start separating our society to those who work in and for the government, and those that pay for it all.

[ Parent ]
Right (0.00 / 0)
I've no understanding what Ed's point is.

If he accepts the notion that the original purpose of the 2nd amendment was to allow the citizenry the right to arms to act as a deterent to a tyrannical government, then why does he seek now to limit that right?

Is it because there's no risk of gov. tyranny now?  Is it because the Government's arsenal is now too overwhelming, so a armed citizenry is irrelevant?

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas


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Wow.... (0.00 / 0)
I amend my last....THIS is the dumbest argument I've seen on the subject to date.

Dude....even back in this era you allegedly studied....the British army could undoubtedly come to your house with 1000 men and a 100 cannons and kill you with quite ease.

What would your plan have been?

Hint:  it's about the POPULACE being armed, not a single individual.

If you want the Constitution to "change" according to the "changes" in society over time......Article V gives you the manner in which to do so.

Change the actual document to get what you want, don't just reinterpret it to mean what you want it to.

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard


[ Parent ]
In regards to the 2nd amendment (0.00 / 0)
I hear this argument often. That it's obsolete because the government has more firepower. Our military had more firepower in Vietnam, and has more in Afghanistan, but it didn't provide victory. You're ignoring things like the rebels determination, morale and popular support. If the government uses excessive firepower, they won't intimidate the rebels into quitting. They'll only make the conflict larger.

I don't want a civil war, I just want the government to respect individual rights. The 2nd amendment is meaningful because those who would oppress us fear they could get shot for their efforts.  


[ Parent ]
Thank you Rob for this illuminating lesson on the Second Amendment (5.00 / 1)
I now realize after all this time the Confederacy was just exercising their constitutional rights against tyranny.

Does the Second Amendment extend down to the local level? Just wondering if people are authorized to defend themselves against the tyranny in local police forces.

One other note. Madison, the author, later switched sides in the whole Federalist debate. How do we know that after he wrote this he didn't change his mind on what he wrote here?

As far as I understand it the Federalist Papers are not enshrined as Gospel, and probably aren't good reference points in a debate. If they are, then I think then Jefferson's writings on the inferiority of non-Caucasians should be referenced in future discussions. There is a whole host of writing from that era that one should be circumspect about.


Tyranny (0.00 / 0)
Does the Second Amendment extend down to the local level? Just wondering if people are authorized to defend themselves against the tyranny in local police forces.

I don't think you need a 2nd amendment for that, just the legal doctrine of self-defense. i.e. Rodney King.  And to that end, suppose the police accidently break down your door, and exercise a degree of force in excess of what is expected.  What's your opinion, should you be allowed to defend yourself?

If, however, the local police chief is denying all firearms licenses, then yes, IMHO, his govermental action would be a violation of the 2nd amendment.


Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas


[ Parent ]
One person's tyranny is another's law enforcement (0.00 / 0)
Just like the difference between freedom fighter and terrorist is sometimes in the eye of the beholder.

I am not on board with arming ourselves against the potential of government tyranny.

Here's a brief rundown of my objections:

The point as to where the government crosses the line (what constitutes the need to revolt) is gray.

If I'm the one revolting I'm not thinking gun. I'm thinking surface to air missles, RPG's etc. Are we thinking this is okay under the Second Amendment?

If anyone's going to be doing the oppressing, I wouldn't be surprised if it was someone who started out on our side.

Open discussion of this topic makes us look like crazies to regular (loosely defined as unenrolled voters) people.


[ Parent ]
Tyranny? From *this* government? (0.00 / 0)
I can't imagine making the case to Hamilton, Madison, and Jay about the need to arm ourselves for tyranny.  

I think Hamilton might say:

"So your government gives you a paycheck for the last third of your life, and pays for all medicine for all people, and lets anyone who is disabled get money, and you pay people monthly for years who don't work, and your tax system gives people rebates who don't even pay taxes, and you give students money for schooling, and you subsidize many corporations and all of your food, and you are now an obese nation where many army recruits are too fat to even fight and because of all of this consumption... your households and your government itself are all going bankrupt together? It sounds like your biggest problem is not that the government is going to take things away from you. It sounds like your biggest problem is that your government has given you everything you have asked for."


[ Parent ]
*this* government (0.00 / 0)
This government is Hamilton and Madison's government. It's the US government and the governments of the States.

The question is this:  is there a probability greater than zero that the US government might become a government of tyranny against the citizens?

If your answer is no, that the probabilities are zero! then the 2nd amendment is in your opinion either obsolete because i) there's no chance that the US government will ever be a cruel and oppressive government. Ever. Or ii) an armed citizenry is always useless against the US fire power.

Right? That's your argument?

Elizabeth Warren: a bankruptcy professor, bankrupt of ideas


[ Parent ]
Guns do not protect us from tyranny. (5.00 / 2)
But IED's (improvised explosive devices) might however, so they should be legalized. They've been very effective against our forces overseas.

By the way, exactly who do you think the government is going to send to oppress you? The troops we honor so much?

If they send the National Guard it might be people we know. Ditto for police and fire personnel, all of whom will be carrying out the hypothical oppression of the government.

Do you see how silly this sounds- using your guns against your town government?

But if that's the Republican way, then I will step in line (but I want IED's- maybe we should have party training in that) and bleed Republican red, but I plan on taking some of the forces of oppression- Army troops, local police, maybe some innocent civilians with me.

PS If it's a Republican administration oppressing me, what do I do then?


[ Parent ]
"By the way, exactly who do you think the government is going to send to oppress you?" (0.00 / 0)
It's a good question guys ... Who did FDR send to round up the Japanese people in CA?  The ones that were put into concentration camps?  I think it was local police right?



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Wow... (0.00 / 0)
....the Confederacy....what next?  Argumentum ad Hitlerum?

The Constitution does not put limits on the reason for owning arms.
Show me where Madison said anything relating to the People NOT bearing arms and I'll listen.  That he also had anti-federalist leanings is wholly irrelevant to the right to bear arms.

The Federalist papers merely give an explanation of THEIR motives and intentions as to what the Constitution meant and should always mean....as opposed to the living breathing always reinterpretted version that means....nothing.

.....go ahead and find all those writings from that era that concern the People owning firearms....DO report back on how arms are protected for "hunters"

"I acknowledge having racist and classist and sexist feelings of white male superiority." -John Howard


[ Parent ]
Where do I mention hunters? (0.00 / 0)
Or advocate for restrictions on guns?

I am advocating for the legalization of IEDs and open discussion as to the local forces that we may someday have to turn our weapons against.

If Madison is cited then he is fair game. People can't just put something up as a source document and claim that because one of the founding fathers wrote it that it's a somehow written in stone.

I don't get your point. Are you saying that because Madison had nothing to say about citizens owning explosive devices then they should be allowed?


[ Parent ]
You are right about the Confederacy. (0.00 / 0)
It really does seem to be the premiere example of what is exactly being talked about here.  Individual gun ownership in the South unsuccessfully deterred federal usurpation of the southern states' right to self govern and also usurped the property rights of southerners.  For pretty obvious reasons no one likes this example.

I wonder how the 2nd amendment scales up.  A nuclear weapon is to a county what a gun is to an individual. Do countries have a similar right to bear arms without limits? I think most people who support an individual right to bear arms frown upon Iran's right to nukes.

Anyways, if anyone wants gun control it would be honest if they preface their plan with how to amend the 2nd amendment to allow it.

---
"That it ceased to exist, I'll grant you, but whether or not it failed cannot be definitively said." - Metropolitan (1990)


[ Parent ]
In the upcoming GOP civil war, there is no question who Rob and ES stand with... (0.00 / 0)


Yes! The South rises again! (0.00 / 0)
We should follow without modification the precepts of our founding fathers who wrote such great passages as (this is Jefferson by the way.

It will probably be asked, Why not retain and incorporate the blacks into the state, and thus save the expence of supplying, by importation of white settlers, the vacancies they will leave? Deep rooted prejudices entertained by the whites; ten thousand recollections, by the blacks, of the injuries they have sustained; new provocations; the real distinctions which nature has made; and many other circumstances, will divide us into parties, and produce convulsions which will probably never end but in the extermination of the one or the other race

and later this nice passage

A black, after hard labour through the day, will be induced by the slightest amusements to sit up till midnight, or later, though knowing he must be out with the first dawn of the morning. They are at least as brave, and more adventuresome. But this may perhaps proceed from a want of forethought, which prevents their seeing a danger till it be present. When present, they do not go through it with more coolness or steadiness than the whites. They are more ardent after their female: but love seems with them to be more an eager desire, than a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation. Their griefs are transient. Those numberless afflictions, which render it doubtful whether heaven has given life to us in mercy or in wrath, are less felt, and sooner forgotten with them. In general, their existence appears to participate more of sensation than reflection. To this must be ascribed their disposition to sleep when abstracted from their diversions, and unemployed in labour. An animal whose body is at rest, and who does not reflect, must be disposed to sleep of course. Comparing them by their faculties of memory, reason, and imagination, it appears to me, that in memory they are equal to the whites; in reason much inferior, as I think one could scarcely be found capable of tracing and comprehending the investigations of Euclid; and that in imagination they are dull, tasteless, and anomalous.

{longer text here http://nicholasstixuncensored....

[ Parent ]
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